Why is there no hard numbers thread?

Razor88

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I'm set to graduate with a Bsc Computer Science(Hons.) degree at the end of the year, and it's really useful to know what people with all types of experience earn in the software development field. There seems to be little information about this though.

Is it a taboo to speak about salary? Can we start a thread where you state your position, location, expericence and salary? I feel it would be useful to a lot of people, even if it's just to see if you're being ripped off.
 

Pho3nix

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You'll get what you can negotiate for and what your employer can afford.

Years, language or position have a impact but much less.

And go to JHB :D
 

Razor88

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You'll get what you can negotiate for and what your employer can afford.

Years, language or position have a impact but much less.

And go to JHB :D

People who came to UCT from JHB said they ain't going back :D, they love CT too much. But yeah, Cape Town living costs and salaries don't exactly match up very well...
 

Hamster

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Depends on a lot of things and varies a lot. Location and your negotiating is part of it, sure, but so is your skill, the projects and companies you work for and your willingness to go the extra mile (if your boss cares). You can have two contractors with similar skill, experience and age sitting right next to each other earning vastly different amounts.

Anyway, if it helps at all, after eight years my salary is 10x what my starting salary straight out of uni was.
 

cguy

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The threads don't tend to be that useful. There is a generic "How much do you earn, and how do you spend it?" thread already on the forum. Although degree and field play a part, the biggest factor is usually "how good that person is", and it's very hard to quantify (because if you ask them, 90% of programmers are better than average ;) ).

The top NDip grads are going to earn more than the bottom rung MSc grads, and this trend will likely continue throughout their lives. Depending who you hear from, you'll get different impressions - this is an aliasing problem from signal under sampling if ever there was one.

From what I've gathered (and I'm not going to make qualification distinctions or location distinctions at this level, because my information is too noisy), for software development, the new grad spectrum seems to be between R15k and R40k. Experienced hires seem to range from R30k-R90k per month - the upper end of the spectrum being people who are "good" (which generally means working on harder problems/projects, not being great at HTML ;) ). Most of the top guys from my university that I know went to the US after their masters degrees (15-20 years ago), now earn in the $200k-$500k per year range.
 
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kripstoe

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:)

I'm set to graduate with a Bsc Computer Science(Hons.) degree at the end of the year...

Congratulations. Now your actual learning will start.

Is it a taboo to speak about salary?

Salaries are generally a very sensitive topic in workplaces. Never ask people what they earn, except if you want to have someone from HR to have a talk with you.

Can we start a thread where you state your position, location, experience and salary?

Without a lot more context and understanding, I'm not sure such a thread will add any value.

I feel it would be useful to a lot of people, even if it's just to see if you're being ripped off.

You always have the option to either negotiate for a better salary or find an employer who is willing to pay more. Depends on the value you are able (or perceived) to add to the place of employment / business.
 

SlinkyMike

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The only people who benefit from salaries being kept secret is employers.

When you see the outrage over job listings without 'hard numbers' on this site you have to ask yourself why we still feel that our own salaries should be kept secret.

You have little to negotiate with if you don't know what your peers are earning. It only benefits employers.
 

kripstoe

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The only people who benefit from salaries being kept secret is employers.

When you see the outrage over job listings without 'hard numbers' on this site you have to ask yourself why we still feel that our own salaries should be kept secret.

You have little to negotiate with if you don't know what your peers are earning. It only benefits employers.

If you know you're earning more (or less) than your colleagues, your attitude towards to your work and colleagues might change. There are a lot of other factors that come into play when peers/colleagues know what others are earning. It's not as simple as just being a number.

You are making the assumption that your ability to negotiate depends on the fact that every employee/peer has the same motivation, work ethic, skill, ability, etc.
 

cguy

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The only people who benefit from salaries being kept secret is employers.

When you see the outrage over job listings without 'hard numbers' on this site you have to ask yourself why we still feel that our own salaries should be kept secret.

You have little to negotiate with if you don't know what your peers are earning. It only benefits employers.

My company requires that compensation be kept secret contractually (not sure how enforceable that is, but it's there with spouse, financial advisor, accountant and lawyer listed as exceptions). I have no idea what any of my colleagues make, and can only guess by seeing the type of houses they buy (which strictly still doesn't tell me if they're frugal and highly paid or reckless with a huge bond). There are various reasons for this:

1) Most employees will not be OK with being paid below the median of their group of colleagues - this is irrational behavior.

2) Most employees are not able to self-assess their value to the company very well.
2.1) Partially due to personal (ego) related bias.
2.2) Partially because they really have very little insight into what everyone else around them's value actually is (if they do, then they're probably not paying attention to their own job).
2.3) Partially because the business importance of what they do - either individually, their entire team, or even entire division is likely something only upper management can make a call on (this affects individual salaries because budgets are assigned hierarchically by strategic importance).
2.4) Retention of particular employees is sometimes very strategic - to retain key IP, or retain a rare skill set. The basis for this decision is not necessarily visible to all employees.

3) It's a huge f***ing distraction - people talk about it all the time, and focus on how to use other people's success to leverage a salary negotiation argument, rather than actually trying to do their job better. One person gets a massive bonus or increase for doing a great job, so work grinds to a halt, and half the company is pissed.

4) This has been tried in practice. Government jobs (e.g., national labs in the US), and some "trendy" startups publish all salaries . What is common to all of these is that salary becomes very normalized - for a particular skill set nobody earns to little, and nobody earns to much - incomes are all within a fairly narrow range. This is awesome for under-performers, and terrible for great-performers - so who is encouraged to stay, and who is encouraged to go? What's bad for the business is ultimately bad for you too (well, unless you're the bottom of the barrel). Furthermore, these companies spend an inordinate amount of time formalizing the ranking of the individuals (crazy formulas with arbitrary constants and ratios), in order to explain the inevitable barrage of why is X is paid $1k/year more than Y questions.

Keeping employees in the dark to exploit them is certainly another reason, but it is far from the only reason.
 
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rward

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Hard numbers:
Freelance Web (Systems & Sites) Developer - R 500 to R 1 000 per hour depening on client, language and project.


Years ago - Agency Web Developer R 26 000
Many Many years ago - Front and Backend Web and Voip Developer and System Admin - R 24 000

I'm cheap .. :/
 

TEXTILE GUY

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Is it a taboo to speak about salary?

Salary is like penis size

Most guys want to brag and do.
They know nobodys going to check, and often their stated size and actual size is roughly the same difference between their lower IQ and higher ego.

So, unfortunately, the data you will get is largely as useful as a stripper in her 3rd trimester.
 

HavocXphere

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Short of people posting their entire CV too it'll be somewhat meaningless.

Plus there are often surrounding circumstances that play a role. Someone might be a key employee on an important project. Or have key client connections etc. I just got a moerse raise as a result of something like that so it definitely happens & its not something you could see on my CV.

What is common to all of these is that salary becomes very normalized - for a particular skill set nobody earns to little, and nobody earns to much - incomes are all within a fairly narrow range. This is awesome for under-performers, and terrible for great-performers - so who is encouraged to stay, and who is encouraged to go? What's bad for the business is ultimately bad for you too (well, unless you're the bottom of the barrel). Furthermore, these companies spend an inordinate amount of time formalizing the ranking of the individuals (crazy formulas with arbitrary constants and ratios), in order to explain the inevitable barrage of why is X is paid $1k/year more than Y questions.
I rate the normalised approach can work pretty well. e.g. My employer has the baseline normalised & then adds a smallish (<20%) performance layer on top. The baseline is common knowledge the performance layer isn't. As you say the average employee is pretty average so it works pretty well.
 

cguy

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Short of people posting their entire CV too it'll be somewhat meaningless.

Plus there are often surrounding circumstances that play a role. Someone might be a key employee on an important project. Or have key client connections etc. I just got a moerse raise as a result of something like that so it definitely happens & its not something you could see on my CV.


I rate the normalised approach can work pretty well. e.g. My employer has the baseline normalised & then adds a smallish (<20%) performance layer on top. The baseline is common knowledge the performance layer isn't. As you say the average employee is pretty average so it works pretty well.

It really depends on how commodified the work is. In software (granted, there is a dependency on the type of software), where there are "10x"ers or even "100x"ers, or for that matter, "0.1x"ers, this doesn't work. At most well run software firms, the top experienced hires should earn several times the average experienced hire.

There are firms that try to prevent huge pay swings within a "level"/pay-grade by finely dividing the promotion scale (Microsoft does this). This doesn't help that much, since promotions are simply seen as money, and people bitch and moan about who got promoted instead of them, etc. Banks with their "VP" and "MD" classes are the opposite end of the spectrum, with the added bonus (see what I did there), that performance counts for a huge portion of total compensation, allowing compensation to adequately reward those contribute, rather than being locked into an implicit promise (high base salary) with under performers.
 

HavocXphere

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It really depends on how commodified the work is.
Good insight. Never thought of it that way.

Also explains why the compensation structure changes abruptly halfway up the ladder at my employer...
 

cguy

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Good insight. Never thought of it that way.

Also explains why the compensation structure changes abruptly halfway up the ladder at my employer...

For sure. BTW, I'm not sure if it's been posted elsewhere before, but have you seen this:

Buffer has a calculator that let's you know what they will pay you exactly: https://buffer.com/salary

Buffer also publishes their salary and equity list for all employees: https://open.buffer.com/transparent-salaries/

Interesting concept, but I wouldn't work there.
 

shooter69

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I'm set to graduate with a Bsc Computer Science(Hons.) degree at the end of the year, and it's really useful to know what people with all types of experience earn in the software development field. There seems to be little information about this though.

Is it a taboo to speak about salary? Can we start a thread where you state your position, location, expericence and salary? I feel it would be useful to a lot of people, even if it's just to see if you're being ripped off.

You do not seem to read all the articles Mybroadband.co.za write up about this very subject.. on an almost weekly basis!! Best to use that info as a guideline. As per previous comments, 'hard numbers' will be useless as circumstances differ.

Having papers does not tell an employer that you can do the job. Build some experience and then you have some negotiating power.
 
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Pho3nix

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It really depends on how commodified the work is. In software (granted, there is a dependency on the type of software), where there are "10x"ers or even "100x"ers, or for that matter, "0.1x"ers, this doesn't work. At most well run software firms, the top experienced hires should earn several times the average experienced hire.

Can you elaborate on this :eek:
 

cguy

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Can you elaborate on this :eek:

It is essentially how uniform/generic the work is, and how generic the skill set required to do it is.

E.g., Imagine a job where your responsibility is to churn out similar WordPress pages using a pre-created set of themes/assets, or implement minor variations on SQL queries to generate similar reports from a request queue every day. There are a lot of people with the required skill set, and someone who is doing a good job vs. a bad job is someone who is just doing them a bit quicker, or with fewer mistakes. In this scenario it makes sense to have a standardized base salary, with small performance incentive to get work done faster, and with fewer issues. If someone under performs, they can easily be replaced - if someone insists on a huge raise, they can be easily replaced too (possibly by two much cheaper individuals, who will generate more output when combined).

The other side of the spectrum are the people working on say, Google's search algorithm or the Frostbite game engine. Firstly, the skill set is really hard to find, top people in these teams can't just be replaced by K junior developers (literally, a 100 junior developers would not contribute as much), and it is therefore critical to the business to retain their top people. Over here, someone who is OK at their job is doing specialized work that is very hard for most people to do, however, there are people in this space that consistently come up with new ideas and ways of doing things that result in significant improvements that have a greater effect on the product than any 10x (or even 100x) of their colleagues. At Google, there will be stories of how engineer X narfled the Garthok, and increased ad revenue by 1.1% (i.e., a billion dollars, or whatever), or at DICE, there will be stories of how their top rendering engineer came up with some crazy idea, that allowed them to do global illumination for "free" in certain situations.
 
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