Why Solar and Wind cannot power Germany

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Nicodeamus

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This video explains that for Germany to be entirely powered by Solar and Wind, you need to use around 20% of the landmass of Spain.


I know that a lot of people here think that Renewables have been getting cheaper, but it is simply false,

Germany has some of the world's most expensive energy prices, because they use these technologies, they aren't environmentally friends and they have created large scales of Energy Poverty.
 
1 in 4 Germans are living in Energy Poverty as a consequence of these policies, the environmental movement has imposed enormous cruelty on many people in Europe.

www.energypoverty.eu

EPAH - Energy Poverty Advisory Hub

ENERGY POVERTY ADVISORY HUB
www.energypoverty.eu www.energypoverty.eu
The energy poverty issue in Germany is closely related to the energy turnaround and the question of whether private consumers alone should have to bear the entire cost of the changeover to renewable energy sources (IASS 2013). According to a survey by the German Network Agency, German private consumers rank third in Europe in terms of electricity prices (German Network Agency 2013, p. 166). Average electricity prices for a three-person household have risen by almost 68 per cent over the last 15 years. There are large price differences between private and industrial consumers, with private households paying almost twice as much per kilowatt hour as businesses. Low-income households have to bear the brunt of the rise despite the fact that electricity consumption often increases in proportion to income growth (Kopatz et al. 2013, p. 60).
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Germany's energy mix as a developed and industrialised country is quite clearly out of whack and is a result of kowtowing to the EU's progressive green agenda, which at best could be described as the well meaning, but off the mark.

Having said that, in SA's context the viability of renewables has more to do with the ability to add power to the grid to urgently meet shortfall (v.s. time take to build more coal/nuclear plants) and to dismantle the generation monopoly held by Eskom. Ideally we should be building more nuclear and cleaner coal fired stations while we get these renewables off the ground.
 
Iwojima said:
Germany's energy mix as a developed and industrialised country is quite clearly out of whack and is a result of kowtowing to the EU's progressive green agenda, which at best could be described as the well meaning, but off the mark.

Having said that, in SA's context the viability of renewables has more to do with the ability to add power to the grid to urgently meet shortfall (v.s. time take to build more coal/nuclear plants) and to dismantle the generation monopoly held by Eskom. Ideally we should be building more nuclear and cleaner coal fired stations while we get these renewables off the ground.
Click to expand...

I agree that many people in SA probably don't have an alternative (it's a no brainer to use a solar panel to heat your water for example), but I am worried that our Renewables will also do the same as it did in Germany i.e. increase the over all consumer costs.

What goes missing into these discussion is the Renewables need to be substituted when the sun doesn't shine and turning gas turbines of and on effectively makes their operations cost more expensive.

When the renewables generate a lot of energy, they tend to oversupply resulting in negative electricity prices, meaning you need to shut down the other electricity systems and then increase their prices to make for the shortfall.

The whole system is one big expensive uncessasary mess and yet its proponents refuse to acknowledge it.
 
Nicodeamus said:
I agree that many people in SA probably don't have an alternative (it's a no brainer to use a solar panel to heat your water for example), but I am worried that our Renewables will also do the same as it did in Germany i.e. increase the over all consumer costs.

What goes missing into these discussion is the Renewables need to be substituted when the sun doesn't shine and turning gas turbines of and on effectively makes their operations cost more expensive.

When the renewables generate a lot of energy, they tend to oversupply resulting in negative electricity prices, meaning you need to shut down the other electricity systems and then increase their prices to make for the shortfall.

The whole system is one big expensive uncessasary mess and yet its proponents refuse to acknowledge it.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately in SA, our electricity has already gone up almost 400% in the last 15 years and we already burn through diesel as our thermal generation cannot meet our requirements. Currently this year our UCLF has hit almost 30%, with OCLF hovering around 3 and PCLF around 10%.
 
Iwojima said:
Germany's energy mix as a developed and industrialised country is quite clearly out of whack and is a result of kowtowing to the EU's progressive green agenda, which at best could be described as the well meaning, but off the mark.

Having said that, in SA's context the viability of renewables has more to do with the ability to add power to the grid to urgently meet shortfall (v.s. time take to build more coal/nuclear plants) and to dismantle the generation monopoly held by Eskom. Ideally we should be building more nuclear and cleaner coal fired stations while we get these renewables off the ground.
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I disagree with that.
I apply the NIMBY rule when it comes to what power stations should be built. And coal power stations fall flat on that aspect, whilst nuclear, solar and wind do not.
 
The problem is that the power stations that have been built are not maintained properly. How often are units down at Kusile and Medupi?

So building more won't stop the rot that starts at the top.
 
Nicodeamus said:
I agree that many people in SA probably don't have an alternative (it's a no brainer to use a solar panel to heat your water for example), but I am worried that our Renewables will also do the same as it did in Germany i.e. increase the over all consumer costs.

What goes missing into these discussion is the Renewables need to be substituted when the sun doesn't shine and turning gas turbines of and on effectively makes their operations cost more expensive.

When the renewables generate a lot of energy, they tend to oversupply resulting in negative electricity prices, meaning you need to shut down the other electricity systems and then increase their prices to make for the shortfall.

The whole system is one big expensive uncessasary mess and yet its proponents refuse to acknowledge it.
Click to expand...
True, almost all those proponents also recycle their own faeces for fertilizer
 
Germany is in northern Europe, and does not get much sunshine in winter. It is also densely populated, and heavily industrialised.

None of these points apply to South Africa, so your argument is irrelevant. IMHO you should rather post in another forum where these issues are appropriate.
 
so electric cars are a pipe dream?
if Germany cant even keep the normal lights on, what use is there in rolling out an infrastructure for EV's.
 
netstrider said:
The problem is that the power stations that have been built are not maintained properly. How often are units down at Kusile and Medupi?

So building more won't stop the rot that starts at the top.
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You mean how many units have actually come online never mind down. Currently the older power stations are mostly always down.
 
Gordon_R said:
Germany is in northern Europe, and does not get much sunshine in winter. It is also densely populated, and heavily industrialised.

None of these points apply to South Africa, so your argument is irrelevant. IMHO you should rather post in another forum where these issues are appropriate.
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Sorry, but the Energy density issues also apply to South Africa, it's the inherent flaw of renewables and the proponents keep on bumping their head. Southern Australia and California are also examples of places that saw skyrocketing energy prices.
 
eg2505 said:
so electric cars are a pipe dream?
if Germany cant even keep the normal lights on, what use is there in rolling out an infrastructure for EV's.
Click to expand...

The green movement in Europe is quite authoritarian, it is all about virtue and power, but these policies are enormously unpopular.

That being said, some aspects of EV cars are potentially competitive, but it is screwing the environment where the materials are being mines and more so than Fossil Fuels.
 
Nicodeamus said:
The green movement in Europe is quite authoritarian, it is all about virtue and power, but these policies are enormously unpopular.

That being said, some aspects of EV cars are potentially competitive, but it is screwing the environment where the materials are being mines and more so than Fossil Fuels.
Click to expand...
so instead of Nazis' we now have Environmental Nazis?
 
Nicodeamus said:
well all that I am goin to say is that the 1930s guy was a vegetarian,
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also a tetotaler, and hated animal cruelty.

maybe we have finally found the root of the EU environmentalism?
so instead of rounding up undesirables to be shot, they now campaign for wind and solar, or you will be shot!
 
eg2505 said:
also a tetotaler, and hated animal cruelty.

maybe we have finally found the root of the EU environmentalism?
so instead of rounding up undesirables to be shot, they now campaign for wind and solar, or you will be shot!
Click to expand...

It does tick some of the boxes I suppose...

 
Based on his assumptions I can see why he got such big numbers, just to name a few:
Transmission losses won't be as high
Conversion losses won't be as high
Energy consumption won't be as high

Then it all starts entering the realm of feasibility (especially if one takes into account there are many more places where incremental gains can be achieved), hence I reckon Germany's target of 80% of energy coming from renewables (which isn't only wind and solar) in 2050 isn't too outlandish. This is of course only true if we make some optimistic assumptions about what the future holds in terms of energy efficiency and generation. But if the video can heard based on pessimistic assumptions, then surely the opposite holds true as well
 
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