Wireless speeds

SauRoNZA

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20MHz and 40MHz bandwidth. .......
Many devices do not allow the selection of channels using the the 40 MHz bandwidth band plan in the 2400 MHz Wi-Fi allocation.

Well the channels live inside the same spectrum of 2412 - 2462 ghz so they are one and the same.

When you use 40MHz you are using two channels at the same time. Usually the main channel and then one one higher or lower, which is why your throughput increases and effectively doubles.
 

Geoff.D

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Well the channels live inside the same spectrum of 2412 - 2462 ghz so they are one and the same.

When you use 40MHz you are using two channels at the same time. Usually the main channel and then one one higher or lower, which is why your throughput increases and effectively doubles.
As per CataclysmZA's very informative posts, it is all about what the manufacturer allows you to configure and control. The cheaper the router the less flexibility and control you have. The same with the devices trying to connect.
It is one of the reasons I have spent so much time and effort fiddling with the piece of crap D-link router Telkom provides as a default router with their fibre services and don't use the 5GHz band at all.
Only one of the devices in my home can access the 5GHz band anyway.
I have a huge problem with service providers in SA that make it so difficult for users to customise their serviced provision.
And the reason is because they stick to the LCD principle which means we are all labelled as being as stupid as the most ignorant potential customer around.
 
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SauRoNZA

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As per Cataclysmic's very informative posts, it is all about what the manufacturer allows you to configure and control. The cheaper the router the less flexibility and control you have. The same with the devices trying to connect.
It is one of the reasons I have spent so much time and effort fiddling with the piece of crap D-link router Telkom provides as a default router with their fibre services and don't use the 5GHz band at all.
Only one of the devices in my home can access the 5GHz band anyway.

The 20 and 40 MHz issue is mostly client dependant not really a router issue.

Apple devices for instance don’t use the 40MHz at all even if it’s made available by the router.

You should use the 5 GHz band if at all possible, rather than avoiding it. The problem is it will almost never work well on a single router device unless the client is in the same room or the very next one over. It was never made for whole home wireless distribution.

But yes overall it’s a universal truth that you get what you pay for and cheaper isn’t going to get you very far.

Generally a good idea to separate your wireless and routing as soon as possible so the one doesn’t depend on the other.

Basically don’t use a Router for your wireless. Get dedicated wireless kit if you want a great experience.
 

Geoff.D

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The 20 and 40 MHz issue is mostly client dependant not really a router issue.

Apple devices for instance don’t use the 40MHz at all even if it’s made available by the router.

You should use the 5 GHz band if at all possible, rather than avoiding it. The problem is it will almost never work well on a single router device unless the client is in the same room or the very next one over. It was never made for whole home wireless distribution.

But yes overall it’s a universal truth that you get what you pay for and cheaper isn’t going to get you very far.

Generally a good idea to separate your wireless and routing as soon as possible so the one doesn’t depend on the other.

Basically don’t use a Router for your wireless. Get dedicated wireless kit if you want a great experience.
Will worry about that when more devices are able to use 5 GHz. Then most of my devices are connected with cable anyway.
 

SauRoNZA

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Will worry about that when more devices are able to use 5 GHz. Then most of my devices are connected with cable anyway.

Well it’s generally a good idea to get as many as possible off the 2.4GHz spectrum as you can to free up bandwidth there.

So even one device using 5GHz can already made a difference.

Of my 32 odd devices 12 are on 5 GHz which is a meaningful difference to the 2.4 GHz band.

You’ll likely never get to a point where everything is 5 GHz and would always have some legacy support.
 

SauRoNZA

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View attachment 922591



Funny thing is, neither did their Airport router. I never understood why they wouldn't want to have the best wireless signal possible.

Maybe the new one will fix this problem.

There was a logic to it but I can’t remember exactly what it was. I think it related to Bluetooth interference and the fact their mouse/keyboard/headphones all use BT out of the box.

They were also on the 802.11ac wagon well ahead of the rest of the world.

What do you mean new one? They dropped Airport as a product line entirely.

It was never something to be fixed though, it’s something they purposely disable.

*****

You’ll find that most proper enterprise solutions use 20MHz by default and generally recommend sticking to it.

Most home routers also have 20MHz set as the default. It’s simply the best for range and interference.

Unifi even consider it best practise. So it’s not entirely baseless.
 

CataclysmZA

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There was a logic to it but I can’t remember exactly what it was. I think it related to Bluetooth interference and the fact their mouse/keyboard/headphones all use BT out of the box.

They were also on the 802.11ac wagon well ahead of the rest of the world.
Yeah, it must have been interference-related. It's been so long since I worked on one.

Edit: Could have been a realistic choice to allow for mesh networking.

What do you mean new one? They dropped Airport as a product line entirely.
Rumours earlier this year pointed to them doing a new one with WiFi 6 connectivity and 10Gbe networking. With how much stuff Apple is now shoving into the IoT space with Homekit, having a new Airport would be icing on the cake. It was shot down pretty quickly, but that kind of config would be ideal for Apple to sell.

You’ll find that most proper enterprise solutions use 20MHz by default and generally recommend sticking to it.

Most home routers also have 20MHz set as the default. It’s simply the best for range and interference.

Unifi even consider it best practise. So it’s not entirely baseless.
Yeah, I think that's because they expect the channels to be so crowded that 40MHz isn't a realistic setup for most public spaces. Have everything on 1, 6, and 11 and eventually move to 5GHz once it becomes reasonable to do so.
 
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SauRoNZA

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Rumours earlier this year pointed to them doing a new one with WiFi 6 connectivity and 10Gbe networking. With how much stuff Apple is now shoving into the IoT space with Homekit, having a new Airport would be icing on the cake. It was shot down pretty quickly, but that kind of config would be ideal for Apple to sell.

Yeah with all their focus on security I don’t know why they haven’t just opened the Airport configuration protocol which is really world class and brain dead end user simple to manufacturers and then given them an Airport standard approval type thing.

It would make sense to have an Apple Home Gateway that could even be a permanent VPN or proxy that could tie in with their parental control and screen time functions etc. I mean in reality the HomeKit servers in iPad and tvOS already so reverse proxying back into your network so it wouldn’t be much of a stretch.
 

netstrider

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5GHz routers are "faster" because of how many spatial streams it can support. You've seen the term MIMO used before (Multi-Input-Multi-Output), and that's how many individual data/spatial streams the chipset can support at 5GHz speeds. Some devices, like my Galaxy S7, are 2x2 MIMO capable on 5GHz networks.

Thanks to the IEEE, the 802.11 standard is a complete mess when it comes to advertising features to consumers. MIMO makes even less sense to consumers. I'm a network engineer and even I'm annoyed by it.

Some terms to note:

Single-radio dual-band: One radio, two bands, it's an either/or situation, shared bandwidth

Single-radio dual-concurrent: One radio, two bands simultaneously, shared bandwidth

Dual-radio dual-concurrent: Two radios, two bands, separate bandwidth

Blergh by Netgear with pictures: https://www.netgear.com/landing/dual-band.aspx



So, this is the TP-Link AC900. The "900" in the model name is the maximum theoretical wireless link speed you could get out of it. But it's actually a AC750 underneath with some firmware tweaks.

The AC900 is a single-radio dual-concurrent design, which means that there is one software-defined radio available to run the WiFi networks. That single radio is designed to negotiate signaling for 2.4GHz and 5.0GHz devices at the same time. The Qualcomm Atheros QCA9563 chipset can drive a single 1Gbps connection to 900Mbps average Tx/Rx speeds, and it's basically allocating 1Gbps to drive both radios (minus some overhead).

This is useful if you have a mixture of WiFi devices and want to share as much of a 1Gbps network connection as fairly as possible. Having to choose between either 2.4Ghz or 5GHz networks doesn't help if you don't have interference from other networks, but would like to separate your devices otherwise.

However, there is a downside. By sharing a radio, there are fewer available data streams for clients on either network, so you're limited by how much bandwidth the chip offers for those data streams. If the 5.0GHz network was using the 80Mhz channel with a 400ns delay (or guard interval), the maximum amount of throughput you could achieve in lab conditions is 433Mbps.

Look at the table here, that's exactly matching the advertised speeds:


If this had two data streams for the 5GHz band, then bandwidth for that network jumps to a theoretical 867Mbps. But that is just two data streams, it doesn't mean that it is MIMO capable. MIMO would allow you to combine them on the client device.



Well, TP-Link isn't exactly lying here. but there are caveats. There are three wired antennae on this thing, and one radio is driving both bands at the same time. For this unit, think of it as having three data streams, one per antenna (more expensive devices have more data streams packed into a single antenna). There is one available data stream for the 5GHz network when active, which means there are two remaining for the 2.4GHz streams. TP-Link's spec table highlights this fact:

WiFi Speeds AC750
5 GHz: 433 Mbps (802.11ac)
2.4 GHz: 300 Mbps (802.11n)

Look at this table:


MCS 30 on that chart lists a max throughput of 300Mbps on a 2.4GHz network with two data streams. If you had two 2.4GHz devices, they would receive 150Mbps bandwidth each (which is another marketing blunder, it is total cumulative bandwidth, so 75Mbps up/down).

If you had to disable the 5GHz network on this router, you could have three data streams, which yields 450Mbps on the 40Mhz band with a 400ns delay (MCS 23). That's 150Mbps for three devices.

Now if you had a laptop with MIMO support on the 2.4GHz band, then you could reasonably get 300Mbps out of it from this router. This router can't do beamforming, so there will be some weird things happening when you have multiple devices connected but only a few at a time actually transmitting data. It won't prioritise data streams according to which device actually needs bandwidth, it will just keep dividing it up.



Indeed, most 2.4GHz chipsets in laptops are only capable of 150Mbps of throughput because they only support a single data stream.



It is likely that some tweaking would help with this, but otherwise you probably have a router that isn't capable of beamforming and doesn't have a lot of spatial streams available, and your devices may not be configured optimally.
Thanks for that.

I learned something new.

With my LTE router I notice the wife's S9, my S20+ and her laptop connect at 2.4Ghz while my laptop connects at 5Ghz.

We live in a fairly small space and AFAIK the phones and my laptop should support 5Ghz (admittedly have not verified).
 

Geoff.D

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Well it’s generally a good idea to get as many as possible off the 2.4GHz spectrum as you can to free up bandwidth there.

So even one device using 5GHz can already made a difference.

Of my 32 odd devices 12 are on 5 GHz which is a meaningful difference to the 2.4 GHz band.

You’ll likely never get to a point where everything is 5 GHz and would always have some legacy support.
Only if you are in an environment where the band is over utilised - I am fortunate in that regard.
 

SauRoNZA

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Thanks for that.

I learned something new.

With my LTE router I notice the wife's S9, my S20+ and her laptop connect at 2.4Ghz while my laptop connects at 5Ghz.

We live in a fairly small space and AFAIK the phones and my laptop should support 5Ghz (admittedly have not verified).

Yeah they’ll likely only use it when it’s better than the 2.4, which means while in the same room or otherwise very close.
 

netstrider

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Yeah they’ll likely only use it when it’s better than the 2.4, which means while in the same room or otherwise very close.
All are in the same room though hence the reason for the question. I'm thinking that it may be a NIC/driver version issue between the devices.

Laptop says AC at 866.7Mbps.

1601236064184.png
 

CataclysmZA

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With my LTE router I notice the wife's S9, my S20+ and her laptop connect at 2.4Ghz while my laptop connects at 5Ghz.

If your devices have linked to both the 5GHz and 2.4GHz networks they will invariably prefer the 2.4GHz band because the chipset then consumes less power.

But if the SSID for your networks are the same, then there'll be some funny business going on where the device picks the signal that it thinks is more reliable.

In my house, my dad's router is all the way at the end, closest to the garages. If I leave and return through the garage, my phone will lock onto the first known network it sees, which is my dad's LTE router, and not my preferred one. WiFi is weird.

All are in the same room though hence the reason for the question. I'm thinking that it may be a NIC/driver version issue between the devices.

Laptop says AC at 866.7Mbps.

View attachment 922735
The B818 is a 2x2 MU-MIMO router for both wireless networks, so this looks all good and you appear to have excellent signal coverage thanks to the router's beamforming capability.
 

Geoff.D

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If your devices have linked to both the 5GHz and 2.4GHz networks they will invariably prefer the 2.4GHz band because the chipset then consumes less power.

But if the SSID for your networks are the same, then there'll be some funny business going on where the device picks the signal that it thinks is more reliable.

In my house, my dad's router is all the way at the end, closest to the garages. If I leave and return through the garage, my phone will lock onto the first known network it sees, which is my dad's LTE router, and not my preferred one. WiFi is weird.


The B818 is a 2x2 MU-MIMO router for both wireless networks, so this looks all good and you appear to have excellent signal coverage thanks to the router's beamforming capability.
Wi-Fi is not weird, the sw running on the devices and the routers is weird! The onlyvway around that is not to connect automatically, but under your active control or make sure that the preferred connection is selected even if the signal strength is not optimum.
 

netstrider

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The router is set to "preference for 5Ghz" or seems to combine 2.4Ghz and 5Ghz under one SSID. At some point I will force 5Ghz only on the router and see which devices are incapable of connecting. That way I'll know if the device supports 5Ghz or not.
 
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