Commodity-backed money vs fiat money?

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What are your views on moving away from fiat money towards commodity-backed money, commodity-backed being something like gold, a basket of commodities or encompassing all commodities?

Commodity backed money in my book would remove government influence wrt to currency, banking etc. Your currency would represent tangible things with value based on supply and demand as dictated by the markets and not how much money the reserve banks decide to print to 'fix' things where they should no be involved in the first place. It would also stem inflation in comparison to current trends.

I just reckon fiat money is a fraud.

Your views?
 
Agreed, fiat money is a fraud but I'm not sure what a workable alternative should be.
Maybe money backed by labour. Say we need a dam over there that will cost R 100 million to build.
Why don't the government not just print R 100 million and pay for the materials and labour.
When the dam is finished everybody got paid and the money is in circulation and nobody
owes anybody anything. The way it works now, we have to borrow the R 100 million from some
bank ( IMF ? ) and after the dam is built we now OWE R 100 million PLUS interest. !!!
 
Agreed, fiat money is a fraud but I'm not sure what a workable alternative should be.
Maybe money backed by labour. Say we need a dam over there that will cost R 100 million to build.
Why don't the government not just print R 100 million and pay for the materials and labour.
When the dam is finished everybody got paid and the money is in circulation and nobody
owes anybody anything. The way it works now, we have to borrow the R 100 million from some
bank ( IMF ? ) and after the dam is built we now OWE R 100 million PLUS interest. !!!

:wtf: Are you even beginning to realise what you suggested here?
 
Agreed, fiat money is a fraud but I'm not sure what a workable alternative should be.
Maybe money backed by labour. Say we need a dam over there that will cost R 100 million to build.
Why don't the government not just print R 100 million and pay for the materials and labour.
When the dam is finished everybody got paid and the money is in circulation and nobody
owes anybody anything. The way it works now, we have to borrow the R 100 million from some
bank ( IMF ? ) and after the dam is built we now OWE R 100 million PLUS interest. !!!

Just making more money and putting it into circulation devalues all the other money already in circulation. Its scarcity is what gives it value.
 
I just reckon fiat money is a fraud.
Not fraud. It value is however based on what we agree its worth. Realistically though pretty much everything in the commercial world has that attribute. e.g. A shark supporters shirt isn't worth R700 either from a purely physical PoV, but if enough people think it is then tada it suddenly *is* worth R700.

Same thing with gold. The gold price is pretty high atm, and the only reason its that high is because people feel its worth that much. So even there you've got the same fundamental problem. Only difference is it won't crash to zero.

Baskets of commodities aren't feasible imo. OT: A basket of currencies might work though for other purposes (e.g. intl trade).

Commodity backed money in my book would remove government influence wrt to currency, banking etc.
Nope. The "honest" governments will manage it right with or without commodity backing and the dishonest ones will simply say "I haz 50 kg gold. Its hidden where you can't see it. Now I'm printing". So essentially it fixes nothing & removes on a viable strategic move for the "honest" governments.

It would also stem inflation in comparison to current trends.
Not necessarily. Inflation has many source, printing money is only one of them.

Your currency would represent tangible things with value based on supply and demand as dictated by the markets
Which would be a complete disaster. Think about it. You've got your *entire* economy linked to a commodity. Commodity prices are notoriously volatile. I reckon we'd have a major collapse within a year.
 
Not fraud. It value is however based on what we agree its worth.

Which would be a complete disaster. Think about it. You've got your *entire* economy linked to a commodity. Commodity prices are notoriously volatile. I reckon we'd have a major collapse within a year.

Currently the government pretty much determines what it's worth.

Not a commodity, all commodities preferably.
 
Currently the government pretty much determines what it's worth.
Not really. It can change the amount of money out there, which affects the purchasing power of a R200 note, but the total amount of value out there remains unchanged.

People misunderstand this. Printing (or destroying) money isn't dangerous because it lowers the purchasing power of a R200 note. Its dangerous because it endangers the underlying fabric on which the currency relies.

Its all about how things are perceived to be not about how things are.

Not a commodity, all commodities preferably.
Its good in theory, but once you start thinking it through you'll see its a disaster from a practical PoV.

Lets say one of the components of the basket is Lithium. Now someone can corner the entire economy by buying up lots of Lithium. So instead of a government, some enterprising individual of dubious motives has you & the rest of the economy by the balls. Commodity backed sure but first you need to get the Lithium from said individual. Or perhaps its discovered that one of the components of the basket is absolutely crucial for making quantum computers.

The problem is a bit more fundamental too. Commodity backed fine. Who is going to hold the actual physical commodities? The gov? Back to square 1 on trusting the gov plus now we've got a bunch of lithium & who knows what else sitting unproductively in some bunker. And to achieve even a reasonably respectable commodity backed currency, the stuff does actually have to be lying idle in a bunker somewhere.
 
Agreed, fiat money is a fraud but I'm not sure what a workable alternative should be.
Maybe money backed by labour. Say we need a dam over there that will cost R 100 million to build.
Why don't the government not just print R 100 million and pay for the materials and labour.
When the dam is finished everybody got paid and the money is in circulation and nobody
owes anybody anything. The way it works now, we have to borrow the R 100 million from some
bank ( IMF ? ) and after the dam is built we now OWE R 100 million PLUS interest. !!!

Hellooooo Zimbabwe!!
 
Money is simply a commodity which is utilized as a medium of exchange in addition to its underlying utilities. The reason precious metals became monetized is because they had certain desirable features for use as a medium: durability, malleability, impossible to counterfeit, low rate of inflationary growth from mining, high value to weight ratio etc. etc. The fundamental reason why a commodity becomes a money is because of demand for its use in exchange, with the expectation from traders that it will not only maintain its value, but be accepted in future exchanges. It is for this reason that governments have absolutely no business imposing a monopoly upon what form of medium people wish to use to exchange. The fact that governments do is the source for a lot of economic problems.

'Fiat' notes can only function as 'money' because they were once redeemable for what is truly money: precious metals. In this way government notes were not technically 'money', but rather money substitutes. Today, fiat notes have managed to survive due to the legacy of the commodity standards which allowed for prices to be established. This is the reason why one cannot simply impose a fiat system upon a market (i.e. the Euro took many years of exchange and capital controls during its gradual introduction).

I am not a fan of gold standards or commodity standards, but I certainly prefer them to the status quo. Ideally, there would be no government involvement in the definition, production and exchange of money; it would be left to market participants and the market process to economize this incredibly important good.
 
Agreed, fiat money is a fraud but I'm not sure what a workable alternative should be.
Maybe money backed by labour. Say we need a dam over there that will cost R 100 million to build.
Why don't the government not just print R 100 million and pay for the materials and labour.
When the dam is finished everybody got paid and the money is in circulation and nobody
owes anybody anything. The way it works now, we have to borrow the R 100 million from some
bank ( IMF ? ) and after the dam is built we now OWE R 100 million PLUS interest. !!!

Your example is incredibly flawed. Ignoring the fact that one could not actually 'monetize' labour, how can one rationalize a price of 100 million? If the government is simply slapping arbitrary prices upon production how could the economy possibly hope to co-ordinate? What you are suggesting is reminiscent of the system imposed very early on in the Soviet Union. The Bolsheviks began by totally abolishing money, which naturally led to a complete a halt in production and exchange. Lenin was eventually forced to "reform" the system and allow monetary transactions, but with the Soviets deciding what should be produced and for how much etc. The result of government attempting to co-ordinate production was disastrous.
 
I am not a fan of gold standards or commodity standards, but I certainly prefer them to the status quo. Ideally, there would be no government involvement in the definition, production and exchange of money; it would be left to market participants and the market process to economize this incredibly important good.

That's kinda what I'm getting at.
 
Not really. It can change the amount of money out there, which affects the purchasing power of a R200 note, but the total amount of value out there remains unchanged.

Partially correct, but you're forgetting that inflation does not impact all prices and monetary units evenly and equally at the same time. Those first to receive the new notes will still have the same purchasing power as others for the time being. Secondly, it is also important to remember that inflation creates distortions and disco-ordination within the economy because of the aforementioned effect.

People misunderstand this. Printing (or destroying) money isn't dangerous because it lowers the purchasing power of a R200 note. Its dangerous because it endangers the underlying fabric on which the currency relies.

I think you mean that it will affect the confidence and demand people have for the currency, specifically foreign transactors. True. Fundamentally, however, the "fabric" current fiat currencies rely upon to maintain their use as media for exchange is simply the force and coercion of the State.

The problem is a bit more fundamental too. Commodity backed fine. Who is going to hold the actual physical commodities? The gov? Back to square 1 on trusting the gov plus now we've got a bunch of lithium & who knows what else sitting unproductively in some bunker. And to achieve even a reasonably respectable commodity backed currency, the stuff does actually have to be lying idle in a bunker somewhere.

Good points, and I agree that a government-maintained multi or single commodity standard is faulty. I can resolve the second part of your paragraph by pointing to my post above in which I define what money actually is and why it is preferable to leave the production and use of it to the market process. Remember, a commodity's utility as a medium of exchange is in addition to its other underlying utilities and properties. It is for this reason that there is demand for its use specifically as a medium of exchange rather than something else.
 
How do you figure that?

There are many reasons, but probably the most important one as to why there aren't other competing private currencies or monies is because the government enforces a monopoly over what can be classified as "legal tender". One recent example is that a gentleman in the United States was sentenced to decades in prison for producing gold coins called "Liberty Dollars".
 
Hellooooo Zimbabwe!!

How so ?

If the amount of products (dams/roads/cars/potatoes etc) increases, the amount of money in circulation also has to increase. As long as there is enough money in circulation to buy the products being produced there should be no inflation and prices will be stable.
 
Your example is incredibly flawed. Ignoring the fact that one could not actually 'monetize' labour, how can one rationalize a price of 100 million? If the government is simply slapping arbitrary prices upon production how could the economy possibly hope to co-ordinate? What you are suggesting is reminiscent of the system imposed very early on in the Soviet Union. The Bolsheviks began by totally abolishing money, which naturally led to a complete a halt in production and exchange. Lenin was eventually forced to "reform" the system and allow monetary transactions, but with the Soviets deciding what should be produced and for how much etc. The result of government attempting to co-ordinate production was disastrous.
My "system" may not be perfect, but feel free to put forward a better system. And at least a better system than the current one where every note in circulation is borrowed from the IMF and has to be paid back with interest. The "interest" part of that "loan" doesn't even exist. It too has to be borrowed from the IMF. Do you see the vicious circle ?
Why can labour not be "monetized" ? I mow your lawn and you pay me R50.
...how can one rationalize a price of 100 million? The gov puts out a tender and the best value for money gets the job etc.
I'm not familiar with your Soviet example but agree that government involvement must be minimum. If government was "honest" then there should be no problem, but they rarely are.
I see paper money as a "storage facility" of energy. I mow your lawn but didn't want the 20 apples you offered me. I preferred a "note" from you that I did mow your lawn and because everyone believes in your note I can exchange it later for whatever I want.

In an ideal world where everyone is honest, everyone should print their own money. I mow your lawn and you write a note that is "worth" something, because everyone is in agreement with the system.

I actually have a problem with my own idea, and that is that the amount of notes in circulation keeps increasing. I try to visualise it but cannot find a solution. I imagine that if the population count is stable there will be a point where no more new houses, roads, dams and power stations are being built and less "new" money needs to be printed. Anyway, I can imagine that a more "natural" system ( no IMF or interest) will sort itself out and reach a stable point.
 
Just making more money and putting it into circulation devalues all the other money already in circulation. Its scarcity is what gives it value.

Not completely true. As long as the amount of products in circulation is also increased they newly printed money will not devaluate the existing money.
 
My "system" may not be perfect, but feel free to put forward a better system.

Did you read any of my other posts, or only the one where I responded to you? Check them out. I did just that.

And at least a better system than the current one where every note in circulation is borrowed from the IMF and has to be paid back with interest. The "interest" part of that "loan" doesn't even exist. It too has to be borrowed from the IMF. Do you see the vicious circle ?

This is becoming quite a common misunderstanding. Firstly, the money supply is controlled by the Reserve Bank, not the IMF (where did you get that idea?). Secondly, money is not debt. It is really convoluted to thoroughly explain why this is the case so I shall refer you to a link: Is Our Money Based on Debt?

Why can labour not be "monetized" ? I mow your lawn and you pay me R50.

You said you would allocate money based upon government's inane estimate of how much labour would be required to produce something. So how would anyone be able to value goods versus the currency based on your arbitrary system? I did not say that one could not exchange one's labour for money, I said labour itself could not become money. In my previous posts I've described exactly what money is. Kindly read them over and let me know if you have any objections or questions.

The gov puts out a tender and the best value for money gets the job etc.

Again, I don't think you understand what money is...

I see paper money as a "storage facility" of energy. I mow your lawn but didn't want the 20 apples you offered me. I preferred a "note" from you that I did mow your lawn and because everyone believes in your note I can exchange it later for whatever I want.

You're almost there in terms of understanding. No, pieces of paper are not "stores of energy" or whatever. They are pieces of paper. The reason why certain goods (precious metals usually) started getting used to exchange for other things is because of the problem of double coincidence of wants. What this means is that, in a solely barter economy, in order for an exchange to happen we both need to have goods each of us desires. If we use a medium of exchange (money) it allows us the freedom to exchange without having this problem, but only under the expectation that the medium of exchange could be utilized at a later time for reasonably the same amount of value. Your example is flawed because it is highly unlikely anyone is going to subjectively value a piece of paper I simply wrote upon. A coupon telling others that you laboured for me for a duration of time could hardly be called useful, right?

In an ideal world where everyone is honest, everyone should print their own money. I mow your lawn and you write a note that is "worth" something, because everyone is in agreement with the system.

Again, a coupon telling us about labour performed in the past for someone else could hardly be called 'valuable'.

I actually have a problem with my own idea, and that is that the amount of notes in circulation keeps increasing. I try to visualise it but cannot find a solution. I imagine that if the population count is stable there will be a point where no more new houses, roads, dams and power stations are being built and less "new" money needs to be printed. Anyway, I can imagine that a more "natural" system ( no IMF or interest) will sort itself out and reach a stable point.

Why would you need the money supply to continuously increase? In a previous post you said it was to keep up with the production of goods, but this is silly. Prices rise when there is more money chasing fewer goods. The whole point of capitalism is to produce goods that people want and are able to afford. Creating more goods than money means money becomes more valuable and can be exchanged for more goods. This is the definition of productive wealth.

I hope I have cleared up some of the misunderstandings you seem to have regarding money and economics. If you'd like a basic primer on what money is and how it should exist I suggest this great book by Murray Rothbard available to read for free online: What Has Government Done to Our Money?
 
Not completely true. As long as the amount of products in circulation is also increased they newly printed money will not devaluate the existing money.

So why would you want the money supply to continuously expand if this results in prices staying the same or rising. What, wouldn't you prefer it if your money got more valuable simply by holding on to it?
 
@Hard Rain

Thanks for those links, I will first read them before I comment again.
 
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