What can I do about Afrihost and their illegal debit orders?

Not really an ADSL discussion here as the services i have with Afrihost are all web hosting in nature, but since they supply ADSL services, I thought this would be okay.

My business is small. I mean really small - I'm lucky to make R3k gross per month still and what with different clients paying me different amounts at different times, I never know when I'll have sufficient funds in my bank account to support debit orders. Due to the erratic and limited income, I'm pretty sure I'm not going to qualify for a credit card either.

For these reasons, I have insisted that I don't want to pay my account with Afrihost by debit order and I can't pay by credit card seeing as I don't have one. This, in my mind, given the note on debit orders by the banking ombudsman, should mean that I can pay exclusively by EFT.

Afrihost see it a different way and insist that the only way in which my account can be paid is by debit order. I have repeatedly informed them of my situation with instruction to remove the debit order on my account and they have repeatedly failed to do so. I was going to lay a complaint with the ombudsman but that would be a complaint against my bank where my grievance is actually against Afrihost who insists that I have authorized a debit order.
I will admit that I did initially authorize the debit order as that was the only way to secure the services. For a while it was going great and then the debit order became an inconvenience for me so I requested an alternate payment method.

Because of Afrihost's frustrating and, in my opinion, illegal policy on the matter, I've now cancelled my service. I put through the cancellation a week ago and yet they've still attempted a debit on my account. I've been having this fight with them since September and I'm not interested in having it anymore.

Given that I have made it clear for a very long time already that I don't want debit orders on my account, I feel that this latest attempt to debit my account is tantamount to theft since I've instructed them to remove the debit order. Now I could go to my bank and tell them to stop the debit order, but then I'll just have Afrihost telling me I'm in breach of my contract and they'll keep debiting accounts like this with impunity.

Surely they can't be allowed to continue this activity with impunity? What can we do as consumers to protect ourselves against this sort of thing?

As far as I know Afrihost never hid the fact that those are their only two payment options, so you signed up full well knowing which options they offer?

What customers often fail to understand and that businesses with thousands of customers have automated these systems, processes and options to fit in with their operational setup and not simply to be "difficult".

You are in the wrong here buddy, they didn't change your terms after signing up, you signed up for a service knowing what it entails and then want to complain after the fact about it not working the way you like.

What you can do as a consumer to protect yourself is read the terms and conditions which clearly outlines these processes. They are there for a reason and not simply to add a pretty tick box at the sign up process. Secondly, as a consumer, you have freedom of choice, so like you did, if you don't like the way they work find someone who offer you the options you need and go there.

I take it you're not aware that the banking ombudsman published a note to the government gazette that clearly states that a debit order is a convenience to the consumer and that no service provider or retailer can legally force a consumer to use the debit order facility?

But hey, this is South Africa... Who gives a **** about the law anyway?

That aside however, please do explain to me then in your ineffable wisdom the following:

1. I took a 6-month payment option which I was informed telephonically would allow me to pay by EFT. Why should it be okay then for Afrihost to debit my account in that case? I mean, I was told I could EFT my payment and yet now all of a sudden, thats not good enough.

2. Why should it be okay for Afrihost to take their debit, as they have done, after I have cancelled my service? They want to make my bank account R1188 lighter for a service that I'm no longer being provided. They're taking money in exchange for literally NOTHING.

Again... law, right? I mean who really cares. Zuma takes all our money so we figure, I guess, why not take each other's money illegally too...

LoganY87 said:

I take it you're not aware that the banking ombudsman published a note to the government gazette that clearly states that a debit order is a convenience to the consumer and that no service provider or retailer can legally force a consumer to use the debit order facility?

But hey, this is South Africa... Who gives a **** about the law anyway?

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Then take the issue up with the banking ombudsman?

As werfie said - you should have been aware of what you were getting yourself into when you began the relationship with AH.

Also - try going into Spar and attempting to pay for your order with an EFT and let me know how that works out for you.

What is illegal about that? They don't offer your preferred payment method...work around it or sod off.

A VCPay card is a possible solution but won't solve your cash flow problem as you'll need to ensure funds are available when AH debit it.

werfie said:

As far as I know Afrihost never hid the fact that those are their only two payment options, so you signed up full well knowing which options they offer?

What customers often fail to understand and that businesses with thousands of customers have automated these systems, processes and options to fit in with their operational setup and not simply to be "difficult".

You are in the wrong here buddy, they didn't change your terms after signing up, you signed up for a service knowing what it entails and then want to complain after the fact about it not working the way you like.

What you can do as a consumer to protect yourself is read the terms and conditions which clearly outlines these processes. They are there for a reason and not simply to add a pretty tick box at the sign up process. Secondly, as a consumer, you have freedom of choice, so like you did, if you don't like the way they work find someone who offer you the options you need and go there.

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I quote now from Bulletin No. 12 from the Ombudsman for Banking Services:

9.4.3 Stopping a debit order
You must cancel a debit order by providing written or other appropriate notification to the third
party whom you authorized to make the deductions.

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I have done this.

Further, my latest invoice from Afrihost stipulates a payment date of April 1st. As it is not April 1st, the following, also from the bulletin, applies:

9.4.4 Disputes about debit orders
You should report any disputes relating to your debit order to your bank.
In particular, you should raise a dispute when the third party:
- has withdrawn an amount before the date specified in your instruction;
- has collected a debit order you did not authorise

Now, its true, I did, at one time, authorise the debit order, but have since given instruction for its removal thus recanting that authroisation making this debit order, then BY DEFINITION, an illegal debit order.

I quote again from the bulletin:

12. Useful definitions
Debit order: An agreement between you and a third party in which you authorise or mandate the
third party to collect money from your account for goods or services that the third party provides
to you.

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As I have recanted my authorisation, as is my prerogative as the customer, there is no longer any agreement in place.

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Is there a termination clause in your contract with Afrihost that relates to a notification period ?

LoganY87 said:

1. I took a 6-month payment option which I was informed telephonically would allow me to pay by EFT. Why should it be okay then for Afrihost to debit my account in that case? I mean, I was told I could EFT my payment and yet now all of a sudden, thats not good enough.

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Can't really see this fact in your initial post? And then you say this:

LoganY87 said:

I will admit that I did initially authorize the debit order as that was the only way to secure the services.

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So regardless of what you were told beforehand, at this stage you didn't raise the question to them of why you were misinformed and then subsequently continued by accepting their terms (a legally binding contract btw)?

LoganY87 said:

2. Why should it be okay for Afrihost to take their debit, as they have done, after I have cancelled my service? They want to make my bank account R1188 lighter for a service that I'm no longer being provided. They're taking money in exchange for literally NOTHING.

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So what exactly does their cancellation policy state in terms of a notice period (it may be in the T's & C's which you obviously didn't read)? Cause I gather that you cancelled the service a week ago?

LoganY87 said:

your ineffable wisdom

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It's embarrassing to try and be sarcastic if you are the one that can't grasp something simple.

werfie said:

It's embarrassing to try and be sarcastic if you are the one that can't grasp something simple.

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Whats embarrassing is that you people don't seem to see the simple facts here. So I'll iterate them plainly in a numbered list so as to avoid any further confusion.

IN CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER (in case you're too dense to understand that):

1. I signed up with Afrihost on a debit order to which I agreed initially.
2. I later instructed them to stop the debit order. They refused.
3. I was told that I could pay for 6-months hosting in advance and that this payment arrangement would allow me to pay by EFT
4. I cancelled my services.
5. I was invoiced for the services, the invoice explicitly stipulating debit order payment method (they lied to me about being able to pay by EFT)
6. They took their debit, without my authorisation (see point 2) and a day early

Their continued use of the debit order facility is, or of right ought to be, a concern on the face of it given that I have, following my authorisation of the debit order, instructed that it be stopped. Not only that but they opted to invoice and debit my account without my authorisation, AFTER THE SERVICE HAD BEEN CANCELLED AND A DAY BEFORE THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO.

And yet I'm the one who isn't understanding the situation? Maybe you're not the person I should be talking to about this. Seems like you lack the understanding necessary to differentiate between right and wrong.

What date did you cancel your service on?

LoganY87 said:

Whats embarrassing is that you people don't seem to see the simple facts here.

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I can actually use the time wasted here more constructively with mature people. So i'll treat you like every other tantrum throwing time waster out there... by moving along.

Necropolis said:

What date did you cancel your service on?

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Friday of last week. Cancellation was acknowledged by Afrihost.

I understand there's a 30 day notice period on cancellation, but that still doesn't entitle them to the R1188 that they're trying to debit from my account. At best it means they have R99 as per the monthly cost of the package I'm using - an amount to which I have agreed, but their system still thinks I'm liable for the R1188

LoganY87 said:

Friday of last week. Cancellation was acknowledged by Afrihost.

I understand there's a 30 day notice period on cancellation, but that still doesn't entitle them to the R1188 that they're trying to debit from my account. At best it means they have R99 as per the monthly cost of the package I'm using - an amount to which I have agreed, but their system still thinks I'm liable for the R1188

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Well it's your own fault then.

From Afrihost's website:

Please note: You can easily make package changes at any point before the 25th of a month, thereafter our billing cycle is processing and we only allow changes again from the 1st.

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You did it on the 25th - not before.

Necropolis said:

You did it on the 25th - not before.

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So you think its fair to charge me R1188 for services I've cancelled and will no longer be enjoying after the end of April?

God damn, how much money do you lose in a month, being so happy to give it away...

LoganY87 said:

So you think its fair to charge me R1188 for services I've cancelled and will no longer be enjoying after the end of April?

God damn, how much money do you lose in a month, being so happy to give it away...

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I don't lose any - I make myself aware of the T&C's of any service agreement that I get myself into.

LoganY87 said:

So you think its fair to charge me R1188 for services I've cancelled and will no longer be enjoying after the end of April?

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Sounds like a straight forward billing query to me, the DO run was probably prepared before you canceled.

Calm down, contact AH re the actual amount due in light of your cancellation and pay by EFT (arguing about failed DO charges is another topic).

LoganY87 said:

So you think its fair to charge me R1188 for services I've cancelled and will no longer be enjoying after the end of April?

God damn, how much money do you lose in a month, being so happy to give it away...

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Just because you've cancelled the services, doesn't mean they're not made available to you. If you cancel after the 25th of the month, you are still provided services into the next month, whether you use them or not.

You missed the cancellation deadline, you are liable for the cost of the following month. If you'd cancelled on the 24th, you would not have been debited for April.

Afrihost don't require a full calendar month's notice, they just need to know 5-6 days before the end of the current month. Better than most ISPs

bullzeye.za said:

Just because you've cancelled the services, doesn't mean they're not made available to you. If you cancel after the 25th of the month, you are still provided services into the next month, whether you use them or not.

You missed the cancellation deadline, you are liable for the cost of the following month. If you'd cancelled on the 24th, you would not have been debited for April.

Afrihost don't require a full calendar month's notice, they just need to know 5-6 days before the end of the current month. Better than most ISPs

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Okay so for anyone who's read this thread and has not found it helpful to their issues, lets assume for argument sake that my situation is different in only one way; lets assume that I did everything right but that everything else about this situation remains as it is.

So in that case the facts would be as follows:

1. Instructed debit orders be stopped
2. Cancelled services before 25 March
3. Invoiced and debited for payment

Now remember this is purely hypothetical, but what would my recourse then be?