SAIX vs Internet Solutions feud ?

fanusj

fanusj

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 11, 2003
Messages
183
Reaction score
53
Location
Faerie Glen, Pretoria
Does anybody know the story on the IS/SAIX feud ? I am hosting my mail server with Afrihost and they are on the IS backbone. Recently, downloading POP3 mail via Telkom Internet ADSL takes forever. When I complained, Afrihost said it was because of a dispute between IS and SAIX on a line between them and that this was influencing traffic negatively!!

So the poor customer is suffering again !!!

Also, it seems that international traffic during the day does not exist - I mean I get nothing through and I am defenitely not capped !! I am suspecting that this residetial area to be OVER subscribbed with ADSL !! Is that possible ? I believe there is only a 1 meg line between the exchange and the next layer that is shared by all the ADSL users in the area ? Does this have an influence on the speed ?

Thanks
 
Yes in the last few months IS has been absolutely terrible. I have had both SAIX and IS accounts for a while (now cancelled IS).
In the day gaming is absolutely impossible (sometimes over 1000 ping on LOCAL servers). In general transfer speeds and responsiveness has just gotten terrible.
Not what it used to be like a couple of months back.
But, yes, when i try one of the IS accounts these days i cant believe how bad it has gotten.
 
Here are the facts as I know them.

1. Saix refuse to allow IS to upgrade there peering link for free, in return IS refuse to pay for the upgrade, which after much thought in terms of who has the content, I think IS should just pay and keep there customers happy.

2. IS is pushing all there North America traffic through there london links due to problems with one of there upstream providers.

3. SAIX is starting to experience large amopunt of congestion on there links between dlsams, now with 1mb out this is going to kill it, however there service is a best effort service with and will be prone to high contention ratios.

I think people should put there ego's away and work these things out so there customer are happy.

I Own ODS (Online Digital Solutions) and I have just pais for a local access line in to siax to aleviate problems my upstream providers are causing ? make you wonder who puts the customer first.
 
Agreed the IS/SAIX peering is a big issue. But I fail to see why IS must pay 100% of the cost for 50 000 users who want to browse sites on the IS network, those 50 000 users are paying Telkom for their bandwidth. 50/50 would be fair.

A UUNET uncaped account would have been cheaper than a Diginet line to SAIX.
 
WickedWeasel said:
1. Saix refuse to allow IS to upgrade there peering link for free, in return IS refuse to pay for the upgrade, which after much thought in terms of who has the content, I think IS should just pay and keep there customers happy.
Click to expand...
The reason the peering link needs to be upgraded is because oh a massive increase in traffic being pulled by SAIX. Mostly seems to be ADSL users. At the end of the day, why should IS pay for SAIX's usage?
 
I am on an IS account, and it varies - good before 8 in the morning, Sucks during the day and round 4:30 or so goes back to being a decent line.....on a full business 512 - i have a mate on 192kb line from Telkom and he gets better speeds FFS !
 
I tested out an IS adsl account over the weekend, speeds were definatley slower than my normal account, to the US I get 33k/s on my normal account but it wouldnt go over 12k/s on the IS one.

local seemed okay but also not as fast.
 
Anyone know how much of the IS ADSL goes through the SAIX network, or is it all on IS' backbone?

Agreed, SAIX should definitely pay for the peering upgrade. The worst part is, if IS pay the R3 mill a month SAIX want them to, the money goes to TELKOM. See why they don't want to pay it?
 
I know their international is, but how does their local (i.e., peering link issues) work? Because in theory, IS should have the fastest local as they have all the content, assuming that their ADSL service doesn't rely on the SAIX network.
 
matt156 said:
how does their local (i.e., peering link issues) work?
Click to expand...
They have multiple peering links and diginet lines all over the place which connect them to other ISPs

matt156 said:
all the content
Click to expand...
What content?

matt156 said:
assuming that their ADSL service doesn't rely on the SAIX network.
Click to expand...
Um since SAIX provides the physical side, IS is likely just offering an alternative end point. In a similar fashion to their big brother, DiData, ADSL offering. In my mind this means if you wanted to get to say a SAIX server it would be
User -> SAIX Entry -> SAIX/IS Peer -> IS end point -> SAIX/IS Peer -> Server
compared to
User -> SAIX Entry -> SAIX Server

Taking into the issues with SAIX/IS peer that could be a problem. But then again I could be wrong about how they will pass data to IS's endpoint
 
Friends

Thanks for the active response to this topic !!

Thanks to WickedWeasel, I now know what the dispute between IS and SAIX is about!!

I still dont understand the impact on the service level if 1000 ADSL subscibers in the same suburb on the same exchange runs their 512K links simultaneously ? If there is only a 1 Meg line upstream from the exchange, theoretically I calculate that every subscriber then only gets 1k ? Am I correct here ?

Secondly, another issue came out of the discussions - the issue of using an alternate ISP's ADSL offering for example the ADSL offering from IS or DataPro. My understanding is that in these cases, the network traffic still runs from my home via copper to the TELKOM exchange, from there to SAIX and then only through some peering link to the ISP. Surely this MUST be slower than using the Telkom ISP ? (Local traffic assumed). I cannot see how another ISP can offer better local traffic if TELKOM has control of the last mile.

In my opinion, the only possible improvement in using an alternate ISP to Telkom would be that the alternate ISP could offer a better sharing rate (and thus more bandwidth) on the international traffic. I am a bit sceptical that other ISP's (for example that offers larger cap limits) can improve on the network throughput that you experience.

Comments please !!
 
Last edited:
fanusj said:
I still dont understand the impact on the service level if 1000 ADSL subscibers in the same suburb on the same exchange runs their 512K links simultaneously ? If there is only a 1 Meg line upstream from the exchange, theoretically I calculate that every subscriber then only gets 1k ? Am I correct here ?
Click to expand...
The odds of having all 1000 users using there full bandwidth is next to none, due to things like difference in habits, times and actual server speeds. So this is where contention ratios come in.

fanusj said:
Surely this MUST be slower than using the Telkom ISP ? (Local traffic assumed).
Click to expand...
Not always it depends on the peering links at the end point and where the server you are going to it. Also coupled to this is the prioty placed on both ADSL user data and ADSL data that is trying to get to the end point over the peering links, in particular the peering link between the ISP and SAIX.

fanusj said:
for example that offers larger cap limits
Click to expand...
Most of the larger cap ones are not offering an alternative end point to Telkom. AFAIK, DiData, IS and UUNet are the only ones with that. The high cap bunch basically run there own radius server but still end point with Telkom
 
A slightly more technical explanation ...

SAIX ADSL Resellers

User Router/Modem -{PPP in ATM}-> DSLAM -{PPP in ATM}-> ESR Router -{IP}-> SAIX Website

IPC (IP Connect) ADSL Provider (e.g. IS)

User Router/Modem -{PPP in ATM}-> DSLAM -{PPP in ATM}-> ESR Router -{PPP in L2TP}-> IS IPC Link -{PPP in L2TP}-> IS LNS Router -{IP}-> IS/SAIX Peering Link -{IP}-> SAIX Website


ESR = Large Cisco Router terminating PPP tunnels from ATM for SAIX & resellers OR forwarding PPP in L2TP to IPC Provider's LNS Router

IPC Link = ATM circuit from the SAIX ADSL IP backbone to the providers network (paid for by provider)

L2TP = Layer 2 tunneling protocol, used to forwarding PPP frames from one router to the next

LNS = Largish Cisco router used to terminate PPP in L2TP tunnels originating from another router (e.g. SAIX ESR)
 
It comes down to a simple fact. who is suffering ?

people on the IS network etc, or people trying to access anything on the IS network, this includes, tiscali, ananzi, mweb etc, so basiclay IS has the content and makes money from the adverts, Saix sell the accounts through however, but they are saix accounts.

now here comes the twist ? both IS and Saix wont make a compromise, so why does IS not just say we will be the bigger boys here and do the upgrade, they will not loose clients, keep them happy and then when the SNO gets there act into gear, move it to the SNO ?

Or are we just aruguing about this because it seems the good fight, fight Telkom with all you might, give up your clothing etc, at the end of the day, I want service, while I may hate telkom (I DO) but they provide the better service at the moment, so after all I sit back and say, i need speed and access, who do I choose, and ISP that is big enough to see the fights they can win and the ones they will not.

Hey thats just my view !

Remeber Comair and SAA (anyone remeber who one that one) yes the one with deeper pockets !

Out ! roger alpha tanga (lol)
 
Perhaps my view is too simplistic, but would the cost of the link not be the responsibility of the party that needs it. If Saix customers are needing to access content on the IS network, then Saix should pay, if the other way around then IS should pay.

All these ISPs should just all band together and go rent out one huge building, save a bundle on the interconnects between themselves and would only need one link out to Saix which can be shared by all of them. Might also give them more leverage when dealing with Saix/Telkom if they have a united front. If the can get a place like Sentech which has data landing rights then the tables would be tuned.

Kinda scary to think of so much infrastructure all centralized in one fragile location, but sure would be an interesting place to work.
 
pookfuzz said:
Perhaps my view is too simplistic, but would the cost of the link not be the responsibility of the party that needs it.
Click to expand...
Well thats how IS is seeing it

pookfuzz said:
All these ISPs should just all band together and go rent out one huge building, save a bundle on the interconnects between themselves
Click to expand...
Um it already exists in the form of JINX and CINX. It does not need a huge building (if memory serves JINX is using 4 or 5 cabinets). Also JINX is based in the IS Rosebank building. I don't remember seeing a Telkom line into JINX though, but pretty much everyone else in Jhb is in there. No idea about CINX.
 
Dont know about them being 'feed', but their ADSL uncapped is certainly fed by satellite ...

C:\>tracert www.google.com

Tracing route to www.l.google.com [66.249.85.99]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms 192.168.1.1
2 13 ms 11 ms 11 ms c1-1-1.rrba.isadsl.co.za [196.34.192.1]
3 73 ms 77 ms 73 ms cdsl1-rba-at6-0-11-is.isdsl.net [196.38.72.249]
4 71 ms 73 ms 72 ms curp1-rba-gi6.isdsl.net [196.38.72.238]
5 67 ms 59 ms 59 ms cdsl1-rba-gi0-1-43.isdsl.net [196.38.72.229]
6 51 ms 43 ms 42 ms 196.26.96.198
7 639 ms 621 ms 634 ms 168.210.250.80
8 677 ms 670 ms 717 ms 168.209.244.2
9 818 ms 816 ms 837 ms 168.209.100.45
10 837 ms 800 ms 792 ms 168.209.246.8
11 738 ms 736 ms 747 ms 195.66.224.125
12 706 ms 722 ms 688 ms 66.249.95.128
13 698 ms 715 ms 734 ms 64.233.175.244
14 761 ms 737 ms 766 ms 216.239.43.96
15 747 ms 754 ms 747 ms 66.249.95.136
16 696 ms 709 ms 698 ms 66.249.95.133
17 718 ms 743 ms 725 ms 216.239.43.81
18 719 ms 717 ms 749 ms 64.233.175.249
19 716 ms 720 ms 756 ms 216.239.46.47
20 775 ms 809 ms 805 ms 66.249.85.99

Trace complete.

BTW although the latency is quite high, both Skype & SIP calls overseas are pretty reasonable as the jitter (variation in latency) is quite low ... very important for VoIP.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top
Sign up to the MyBroadband newsletter
X