The Hitchhikers Guide to WiFi ISP network ??

stormwalkerza

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So, anyone care to help out here ?

From what i've read sofar, you may setup a wireless comunity lan with no legal implications, share internet as long as your not charging?

and use one of the 1000's possible loopholes in that case of for example, all ppl who have a sub-domain hosting acccount on domain.com can have free inet access over the network..

And the "legal" way.

Apply for Vans license (R5k application fee) & hope to get one

Setup wifi & inet conectivity & charge for connection??

I'm sure there are people here who have a Vans license who could anser some Q's...

Is it not possible for us to setup lans and provide inet under one of these people throughout South Africa and pay them a % of the profit ??

Or are the Vans licenses restricted to certain areas ??

Lastly, what all is covered by a vans license, ie can i set up a wireless lan and offer free calls within the comunity via skype or other voip software (Knysna Case) ??

Lotsa q's, sor about that :-p

Cheers

SW
 
Quite Simple

It is illegel to have a wireless network.

you cannot transmit data over a boundary.

Wireless communities are not legal YET

you cannot resell bandwidth unless your upstream service provider knows and agrees
 
there is a large difference of opinion - while ICASA officially state that possession of a VANS does still not allow cross-border telecomms it is being tolerated just about everywhere you care to look

also bear in mind the electronic communications bill (replaces the telecomms act) is to apparently be signed into law any day now - when it is VANS licences as category will eventually fall away and there will be a whole new structure...(not time to go further now...another time)
 
stormwalkerza said:
Ahh, so having a VANS license means squat ...

tnks
i wouldn't put it that strongly....i am not aware og any VANS operator crossing boundaries being succesfully prosecuted or closed down and many of them are operating very openly....

or put another way - a telecomms licence is better than no telecomms licence
 
Ecb

The new ECB bill states that no license is required for communication across boundaries using 2.4 GHz.
 
stormwalkerza said:
Thanx skydog.

And if you have a vans license ???

you said it

stormwalkerza said:
Ahh, so having a VANS license means squat ...

The tone of my posts seem very negitive. but this is not the fact.

It is a debate that could go on for years about the legality of wireless.

As i stated it's simple the law states that it is illegal to cross bondaries (even if you have a VANS license)

If you are going to do good people will support you

There are many people doing wireless some for fun most for profit or trying for profit. The guys that do it not for profit get hacked off when people that know nothing come along and try make money for something they know nothing about. and use the "free" spectrum to do it.... and muck everyone else around

oh by the way.... setting up a wireless network for an ISP is not as easy as 1 2 3

good luck
 
henkk78 said:
The new ECB bill states that no license is required for communication across boundaries using 2.4 GHz.
errrr - not as far as i can see - can you point me to something specific?
 
ECB Bill

Hi Dominic,

Here's my correspondence with Janet MacKenzie (Cliffe Dekker's telecoms attorney)

Hi Henk

The current regulations on the use of the 2.4 GHZ spectrum provide that where connections are established across boundaries then the facilities for such connections must be obtained from Telkom and the operation of such networks must be licensed. These regulations also specify the power outputs associated with the use of the 2.4 GHZ spectrum and further provide that there must be no interference to spread spectrum.

Once the ECB is promulgated, the use of the 2.4 GHZ spectrum across boundaries and in Wi-Fi hotspots in public spaces will not have to be licensed. However, users will have to adhere to all of the other requirements detailed in existing regulations until such time as they are either amended or repealed. In addition, Telkom’s monopoly over the provision of facilities used for such networks will no longer continue under the ECB and other communications network service licensees will be able to provide these facilities.

Kind regards

Janet MacKenzie

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Henk Kleynhans [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: 03 February 2006 10:52 AM
To: Mackenzie, Janet
Subject: Belated question from Telecoms Conference
Importance: High

Hi Janet,

It was really good seeing your presentation at the Telecoms Conference on Tuesday. Thank you for so clearly explaining a complicated bill!

Before being time-vetoed by Luke Mills, I wanted to ask the following question:

In your presentation, you stated that no license will be required for operating services in the 2.4 GHz spectrum. Does this mean that one could now establish network connections between two or more buildings that are separated by public boundaries? Or even provide 2.4GHz Wi-Fi hotspot services in public spaces without any license? If a license is required by the Hotspot Operator, which class license will it be?

Thank you for your time, I’m writing a report for Enablis and would appreciate it if I could share your response.

Best Regards,

Henk
 
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thanks henk

that's an interesting take - will have to consider it (its never that simple when it comes to telecomms regulation in SA)

fyi general notice 533 of 2004 is the one with the ism usage regulations
 
I will have to agree with Janet, dominic.
See p.13,14,15 of the ECB.

P.13 (3) Electronic communications network services, broadcasting services and elec-
tronic communications services that require an individual licence, include, but are not
limited to- 5(a) electronic communications networks of provincial and national scope
operated for commercial purposes

For council the ECB(Electronic communications bill) says you can communicate via Dslams-without a Telecoms and equipment license, but for non-profit purposes. Private individuals in partnership with council communicating non-commercially needs neither a communications license nor an equipment license.

Private individuals communicating (non-profit) not in partnership with council is a grey legal area. P.15 says that Icasa may perscribe what type of network. Not must do so, but can do so as it sees fit. Thus you can build your copper/fiber network spanning the entire length of Jhb as long as it is not-for-profit.
Icasa sort off reserves the right to declare it illegal at any time and will probably only do so if you use this non-profit copper/fiber CCTV network to stream commercial Internet data. Lets presume Mbeki signs the ECB tomorrow. Since Icasa has'nt declared any type network illegal for non-profit use, all networks are legal in all configurations crossing any number of roads.

Lets presume Icasa declares your type of network - copper running from roof to roof not in partnership with council, illegal - then what? Well then nothing, tell them to take a hike. Note that the police ignored Icasa after they laid a charge against the DPTV broadcasters. This country's legal system is such a joke that you can openly defy the Broadcasting Act- John Welch won't touch you. He has got better things to do with his time.

The ECB is a massive improvement over the draconian Act.96. Private individuals communicating for non-profit reasons [not in partnership with council] can now legally string copper from roof-to-roof across roads, because Icasa has'nt specifically outlawed fiber/copper swinging from roof-to-roof. Now just use your imagination a bit.
Does this mean we can now plant our own telephone poles and string wire from it? Yes, that is exactly what it means. And before you give it the horses laugh, read carefully what p.15 says. It says 'Icasa may perscribe' , they don't have to say anything about jointly owned telephone poles crossing the road as long as it is not-for-profit. Should they so desire they could declare it illegal even though it was only used not-for-profit.

p.15 is a ridiculous attempt at micro managing private telecoms networks of individuals not in partnership with council How does Icasa actually intend enforcing a this network is illegal ruling with equipment that is legal? Either you must a have a blanket ban on data crossing the road like Act.96 stipulated or you should just forget about trying to block people from building their own telephone exchanges for commercial broadcasting purposes.

The moment the ECB becomes law 400 houses starts planting Telephone poles, since Icasa has'nt said that they can't. But if Icasa doesn't forbid it immediatly then they won't be able to forbid them after one year with an extra 3000 telephone poles. It's critical that you read p.15 correctly: No network setup crossing any number of roads are forbidden[for non-council related networks] until Icasa declares it illegal.

Icasa may not perscribe the type of non-profit network used by council.
We need to forge a strong partnership with council. Council can legally import www.zyxel.com Dslams and sell it to us at cost. The community telephone wire swinging from our roofs will just be 'donated' to council. It will legally be councils network but in essence ours since it runs over our properties. We could have broadcasting services or TV stations
over this network - as long as it is not for profit. If we share the cost of a TV satellite stream and don't make a profit on the rebroadcasting of it over the Dslam networks - then it's legal! And please, would some of you stop telling me can do this via Wi-fi. You can't wi-fi doesn't have the bandwidth. Even with Wimax it will be difficult. Or put it this way. If Icasa declares a certain private non-profit network setup illegal then just donate it to council - problem solved: Now it's legal.

Question to Telecoms lawyers:
The ECB doesn't specifically mention the word VANS, why not and what is the status of Vans license holders since they won't be able to self-provide?
 
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So after the new bill its "free for all" on 2.4 GHz ??

IE i can setup a wifi hotspot and charge people ??
 
stormwalkerza said:
So after the new bill its "free for all" on 2.4 GHz ??

IE i can setup a wifi hotspot and charge people ??

Nope. Non-profit only. But I imagine that sharing cost without making profit will still be legal. E.g. your ADSL costs you R1000 per month. You share with four other people, that's R200 each (including yourself). :o
 
captainwifi said:
Question to Telecoms lawyers:
The ECB doesn't specifically mention the word VANS, why not and what is the status of
Vans license holders since they won't be able to self-provide?
there will be two broad categories of licence (leaving aside broadcasting, frequency)

1. communications network service licence - i.e. an infrastructure licence
2. communications service licence - i.e. a service licence

the distinction is easy - at the moment telkom offer a public switched telecommunication service (PSTS) over a public switched telecommunication network (PSTN)

under the ECA telkom, currents VANS, the mobiles, current PTNs and others will all get a communication service licence - so the current framework dissapears and ICASA has to convert existing VANS into communication service licences

in simplified form, infrastructure licences at national level will be available only when the Minister says so - infrastructure licences on a "local" or "district" level will theoretically be available through a fairly simple registration process

the devil as always will be in the detail and the ability of ICASA to cope with what is required of them
 
ahhhh

So to get through that with so many loopholes.

Set-up wifi mesh, offer free non proffit lan access (your usual comunity)

1) Everyone who signs up for subdomain hosting on domainname.com for R200 amount per month get free internet over then wifi
2) (or) Ger your email address on domainname.com for R200 per month get free internet over then wifi
3) (or) Rent Wifi Card for R200 per month get free internet over then wifi

etc, etc, etc

sigh .... just need the ECA now ....
 
PeekNPoke what you are saying is true. I don't know how this escaped my notice......services not-for-profit.... can be interpreted extremely broad.

A different way of stating it is to say that if you have no profit motive then it is legal to resell data in order to cover the costs. So if I pay R30000 for a 4meg satellite link from www.intersatafrica.com and distribute it to a 100 users with each of them paying me only enough to cover the cost of the signal - then it is not-for-profit. No profit was made and there was no profit motive! p.15 is getting more ridiculous the more we thrash out the implications. How will Icasa actually determine that I didn't make a profit?

(5) Electronic communications network services, broadcasting services and elec- tronic communications services that require a class licence, include, but are not limited to-
(a) electronic communications networks of district municipality or local munici pal scope operated for commercial purposes p.13

What is the difference between not-for-profit p.15 and not operating for commercial purposes P.13 both
seems to allow one to resell Internet data at cost? What Charles Kuun told me thus was the truth http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?t=29635&page=5

Time for action:
Advertise a community network with the following blurb:
Non-profit community based Internet data resold at cost, there is no profit motive. Visit www.icasaIsAClown.co.za to join the network. Now that should really get the attention of Icasa and thus we will find out soon enough if they agree with my interpretation. And if they don't well then take us to court and let a judge decide. Neither Icasa nor lawyers decides what the ECA really,really says - a judge decides. But I have a suspicion that Icasa isn't going to pursue our networks like it did under Act.96. I think that the councillors will just let the whole thing slide.
 
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Heres some other dudes

Complete system + 1.2m dish = 11,174.32 ZAR

Connection Costs (paid quarterly)
512kbps/128kbps 50:1 - 1,381.84 ZAR
512kbps/128kbps 30:1 - 1,700.56 ZAR
4096kbps/512kbps 10:1 - 14,135.63 ZAR

http://www.bentleywalker.net/

Just getting my reply on uncapped part...
 
PeekNPoke said:
Nope. Non-profit only. But I imagine that sharing cost without making profit will still be legal. E.g. your ADSL costs you R1000 per month. You share with four other people, that's R200 each (including yourself). :o

Nope that would not be legal. generally in your Terms Of Service with your ISP it will say you cannot resell bandwidth.

I guess it's all in interpretation.

We wouldn't have to think of ways around the law and how to get the best deal if ADSL cost R200 a month.
 
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