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Question of the Day: Have you had to buy RAM, SSDs, or a new PC since the prices skyrocketed?
Staff ‘lack innovation’
- Thread starter ic
- Start date
I don't think this is true. I just think our environment is NOT suitable for fueling the imaginations of bandwidth starved folks. Ask any computer geek and web monkey out there what his/her number one source is for more and new information??!!?? THE INTERNET! These folks need loads of cheap bandwidth to compete with folks overseas.
The truth is we have too little access for too high a price!
The truth is we have too little access for too high a price!
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DaBump
Well-Known Member
Here is my view
Software developers today are mostly in for the money that the IT industry can pay them in the form of salaries. Being a software developer myself, you need to constantly train yourself, i.e. reading, and trying different technologies. You need to have a passion and the right attitude, and want to know how certains things work.
The experience I have, is that the software developers, because they studied computer science, heard that the IT industry pays well! They lack the personality and attitude towards the IT industry, and ride the so called 'gravy train' which in turn damages to perception of the local software developers available in south africa. Also, it's difficult to fire them, after management discovers the 'real' attitude and knowledge they have, which allows for them to 'float' around and do work 'here' and 'there'.
Ayways, just my view...I've got alot more to say, but feel that it won't help much
Cheers
Dabump
Software developers today are mostly in for the money that the IT industry can pay them in the form of salaries. Being a software developer myself, you need to constantly train yourself, i.e. reading, and trying different technologies. You need to have a passion and the right attitude, and want to know how certains things work.
The experience I have, is that the software developers, because they studied computer science, heard that the IT industry pays well! They lack the personality and attitude towards the IT industry, and ride the so called 'gravy train' which in turn damages to perception of the local software developers available in south africa. Also, it's difficult to fire them, after management discovers the 'real' attitude and knowledge they have, which allows for them to 'float' around and do work 'here' and 'there'.
Ayways, just my view...I've got alot more to say, but feel that it won't help much
Cheers
Dabump
Rikus
Banned
You sort of confirmed what I thought all along.Software developers today are mostly in for the money that the IT industry can pay them in the form of salaries. Being a software developer myself, you need to constantly train yourself, i.e. reading, and trying different technologies. You need to have a passion and the right attitude, and want to know how certains things work.
The experience I have, is that the software developers, because they studied computer science, heard that the IT industry pays well! They lack the personality and attitude towards the IT industry, and ride the so called 'gravy train' which in turn damages to perception of the local software developers available in south africa. Also, it's difficult to fire them, after management discovers the 'real' attitude and knowledge they have, which allows for them to 'float' around and do work 'here' and 'there'.
Ayways, just my view...I've got alot more to say, but feel that it won't help much
Cheers
Dabump
AdLo
Expert Member
What does CITI expect? IT personnel aren't in Cape Town for their career or money but for the Cape lifestyle.
Those corporates should rather think of changing their laidback culture if the want to attract innovative thinkers. I also don't think it helps them that the have such a small pool of IT people there but still the shouldn't complain as their IT market there is very small.
Maybe if those laidback mountain lovers in the Cape parliament start criticizing each and every day those SOBs in government for SA having the highest telecoms costs in Africa despite being the biggest economy then perhaps this country's IT sector could finally start getting somewhere.
Those corporates should rather think of changing their laidback culture if the want to attract innovative thinkers. I also don't think it helps them that the have such a small pool of IT people there but still the shouldn't complain as their IT market there is very small.
Maybe if those laidback mountain lovers in the Cape parliament start criticizing each and every day those SOBs in government for SA having the highest telecoms costs in Africa despite being the biggest economy then perhaps this country's IT sector could finally start getting somewhere.
diabolus
Executive Member
Being in software development myself, i know for fact that companies do not exactly "encourage" innovation.
It's one thing to be able to pour out a product in 2 weeks. It's a totally different thing to expect the person you put on that project to now suddenly have generated a white paper on the technology used and maybe, oh, coded a whole new framework?! . Get real.
Everywhere i worked, there's two conflicting issues:
a) Operational/Support/Short Term . A client wants something, they want it now and they are willing to pay for it. What happens? Suddenly there's 50 of these projects and all the resources are doing short term "tools" and "support".
b) R&D/Long Term . Company decides to invest on improving it's core products, maybe upgrade, new tech, new functionality. I.e. like writing Windows Vista while have a large client base on Windows XP. The Vista team don't bring in ANY cash while it's not out the door....
In b) is where you should expect "innovation" and "quality", NOT in a). Very few companies actually ever seem to do b), but expect similar kind of output by putting all their resources on a) .
Try and tell your boss that at Google , the programmers get almost 30% of their time where they MUST just sit and think [and do it too] of new stuff or ways to improve existing products....see what they say to that.
Even in my current position i have this HUGE list of things that i want to improve/enhance on our company's core product. The bosses know it, they agree with it and they also know it's going to bite us within 5 years if we ignore it. Do they give me chance to do anything about it? Do they get someone else [someone cheaper mayhap] ?
Noooo, they step into every meeting with : "Our budget for the next 6 months is this, we need to get this project out the door, we need to get that contract or that sale. What resources do we have? WHAT, xxx is not working on a billable project???!! Move him onto this one..." . [meantime xxx was busy writing a super innovative framework...but oh well].
From a "client" side, yes i can understand the gripe. They now get some wish-washy slapped together product done by junior programmers [because the IT company is too cheapskate to put senior people on it] . In the end it's how IT companies are managed:
Do't blame graduates and the guys on the floor. This is all management. Idiots running IT companies who don't understand IT and only wants short term profit. Even in-house training, medium sized IT companies you almost have to beg and lick them to do it and then even if eventually decide to do it they try to squeeze it in "inbetween" your normal work....[making you hate the training] .
Well duh, after you end up playing "call-centre, helpdesk and general support" rolled into one it sort of becomes quite mind-numbing. They expect you to still be a genius programmer when you actually get to the development part [usually this is when the client finally went home and stopped bugging you , and you don't get paid overtime of course..] ?
It's one thing to be able to pour out a product in 2 weeks. It's a totally different thing to expect the person you put on that project to now suddenly have generated a white paper on the technology used and maybe, oh, coded a whole new framework?! . Get real.
Everywhere i worked, there's two conflicting issues:
a) Operational/Support/Short Term . A client wants something, they want it now and they are willing to pay for it. What happens? Suddenly there's 50 of these projects and all the resources are doing short term "tools" and "support".
b) R&D/Long Term . Company decides to invest on improving it's core products, maybe upgrade, new tech, new functionality. I.e. like writing Windows Vista while have a large client base on Windows XP. The Vista team don't bring in ANY cash while it's not out the door....
In b) is where you should expect "innovation" and "quality", NOT in a). Very few companies actually ever seem to do b), but expect similar kind of output by putting all their resources on a) .
Try and tell your boss that at Google , the programmers get almost 30% of their time where they MUST just sit and think [and do it too] of new stuff or ways to improve existing products....see what they say to that.
Even in my current position i have this HUGE list of things that i want to improve/enhance on our company's core product. The bosses know it, they agree with it and they also know it's going to bite us within 5 years if we ignore it. Do they give me chance to do anything about it? Do they get someone else [someone cheaper mayhap] ?
Noooo, they step into every meeting with : "Our budget for the next 6 months is this, we need to get this project out the door, we need to get that contract or that sale. What resources do we have? WHAT, xxx is not working on a billable project???!! Move him onto this one..." . [meantime xxx was busy writing a super innovative framework...but oh well].
From a "client" side, yes i can understand the gripe. They now get some wish-washy slapped together product done by junior programmers [because the IT company is too cheapskate to put senior people on it] . In the end it's how IT companies are managed:
Do't blame graduates and the guys on the floor. This is all management. Idiots running IT companies who don't understand IT and only wants short term profit. Even in-house training, medium sized IT companies you almost have to beg and lick them to do it and then even if eventually decide to do it they try to squeeze it in "inbetween" your normal work....[making you hate the training] .
Well duh, after you end up playing "call-centre, helpdesk and general support" rolled into one it sort of becomes quite mind-numbing. They expect you to still be a genius programmer when you actually get to the development part [usually this is when the client finally went home and stopped bugging you , and you don't get paid overtime of course..] ?
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kaspaas
Expert Member
My handicap in life is being a creative person - and I therefore have excellent experience of the general management attitude towards creativity.
The main problem in my experience is that we have a lot of force fed text book trained people called managers and very little real natural managers. The force fed kind knows about schedules, targets, budgets, completing tasks etc. None of these are management actions that is creativity friendly.
Being creative creates a lot of distractions from the targets management loves. Unless one files all creative thoughts into the dustbin, you won't meet any of the text book production target measures - and that simply means the red carpet.
The usual management message is straight and simple: Slog as being told and forget about anything creative. This management attitude is not limited to IT - it is in all sectors of industry.
I'm fortunate to have a position at present with a natural manager who appreciates the need of creativity to develop his company for the future. He knows that today's creativity in an investment he has to nurture for profits in a few years time. At the same time his company is growing and moving closer to the being a leader in the field - which brings in a lot of new business.
Pity there are not many like him.
The main problem in my experience is that we have a lot of force fed text book trained people called managers and very little real natural managers. The force fed kind knows about schedules, targets, budgets, completing tasks etc. None of these are management actions that is creativity friendly.
Being creative creates a lot of distractions from the targets management loves. Unless one files all creative thoughts into the dustbin, you won't meet any of the text book production target measures - and that simply means the red carpet.
The usual management message is straight and simple: Slog as being told and forget about anything creative. This management attitude is not limited to IT - it is in all sectors of industry.
I'm fortunate to have a position at present with a natural manager who appreciates the need of creativity to develop his company for the future. He knows that today's creativity in an investment he has to nurture for profits in a few years time. At the same time his company is growing and moving closer to the being a leader in the field - which brings in a lot of new business.
Pity there are not many like him.
RichardP
Banned
No, Corporate install so much RED TAPE that Software engineers arent inspired. Its easy to pass-the-buck.
Have these people ever tried to innovate at a local company? They are risk averse and refuse to try anything new. They give poor pay for the time and effort necessary in the job. You'd be lucky if increases even keep up with inflation. The only way to get anywhere is to jump from company to company (the same problem exists for engineers). There is no reward for putting in the time to learn new things or help the company.
I've also watched companies spend 6-12 months hunting for someone with specific experience instead of hiring a skilled person who will learn what is required. Sometimes they end up hiring someone who can answer all the technical questions, but lacks the required creativity and insight to solve real problems.
orin76
Expert Member
Companies always look for the quick fix. Head hunting is usually preferred to promoting someone from within the company. There seems to be this fear of training people up. The typical excuse is that if they spend money training you in a specialised skill, you'll leave them for a better paying job. Eventually you'll leave anyway because of the lack of career progression.
The talent is most certainly here if you look carefully. ZA has world class developers. As a company seeking a software solution you need to take the time and trouble to partner with the right people and take the time to look their track record, ability and maybe even talk to their management AND staff *gasp*.
HEAR HEAR
Roo!
Expert Member
The biggest problem in IT in SA today is management, in all its levels.
1) Company management is not willing to provide adequate training and development to experienced developers for future prospects (within the company).
2) Government sees fit to force AA in an industry where there certainly isn't enough skills as it is, irrespective of the colour of skin.
3) Companies see fit to hire people with no aptitude for and experience in development and expect the senior staff to not only carry their own work but also spend precious time training (i.e. giving away your hard learnt experience) to the untrainable.
4) Unless you're at the beginning of your IT career (less than 3 years experience) there is very little hope for decent increases in salary, but you can bet your responsibilities will increase, which ultimately means more work for less pay.
With all these points, exactly were is the incentive to be more creative and world class?
1) Company management is not willing to provide adequate training and development to experienced developers for future prospects (within the company).
2) Government sees fit to force AA in an industry where there certainly isn't enough skills as it is, irrespective of the colour of skin.
3) Companies see fit to hire people with no aptitude for and experience in development and expect the senior staff to not only carry their own work but also spend precious time training (i.e. giving away your hard learnt experience) to the untrainable.
4) Unless you're at the beginning of your IT career (less than 3 years experience) there is very little hope for decent increases in salary, but you can bet your responsibilities will increase, which ultimately means more work for less pay.
With all these points, exactly were is the incentive to be more creative and world class?
This is a really good post... I agree with most of this post and I would like to comment too if I may:
I work in electronic engineering... in a R&D department and this is how these things hit commonality with me:
They don't. Rule #1 Profits first (they don't care about you as long as you work)
On an additional note, over here we have this thing about degrees and a stigma if its lacking. We have some degreed folk but the majority of really smart people here are not degreed. It has come to my attention that the non-degreed folk are being discriminated against blatantly in terms of pay rise, and projects they are allowed to work on. Last week I was told by someone else in the industry I am working for peanuts and I ought to move on. Just right now it's hard to find another job!
I work in electronic engineering... in a R&D department and this is how these things hit commonality with me:
They don't. Rule #1 Profits first (they don't care about you as long as you work)
Strongly agree. I have seen some very very clever okes, and I continue to bump into them from time to time.
This applies to my employer. We got the honourable Prof. Ron Amey in here who told them exactly that. And guess what, they still refuse to listen. The mass of resignations started shortly thereafter. We've lost a 1/3 of our staff here. We are now on average 1 resignation/week. I am desperately looking for another job also. This ship is defnitely sinking.
Spot on! I tried to innovate here when I got here. I ended up getting sick because their response to that was to shove me in a room and keep me away from the projects. So yes, I jump from company-to-company. That was the only way I was able to get the salary I am getting now. I recommend it to you all!
it is everywhere yes, even in the automotive electronics industry, it's in the shipping industry, it's defnitely in the cellular industry.
This is what happens here. Do you and I work for the same company? I think we do. PM me plse.
On an additional note, over here we have this thing about degrees and a stigma if its lacking. We have some degreed folk but the majority of really smart people here are not degreed. It has come to my attention that the non-degreed folk are being discriminated against blatantly in terms of pay rise, and projects they are allowed to work on. Last week I was told by someone else in the industry I am working for peanuts and I ought to move on. Just right now it's hard to find another job!
Been labelled a troublemaker. Been sidelined. Always by upper management. Then when they discover I was right and do what I told them years ago there is no credit, no reward, so I stopped bothering. I save my time and energy for things that are important to me.
If I was going to give one piece of advice to anyone starting out it would be that loyalty is for saps. Milk the company for all its worth, then dump them when they are of no more value to you.
This is not unique to South Africa. Most companies will be very reluctant to even talk to someone unless they have a degree. I can understand it. Getting a tertiary qualification takes some effort and dedication. School coddled everyone and we really did not learn all that much.
Although there have been jobs from which I was barred because I am neither black nor female it has not prevented me from being employed. I have also yet to have to deal with anyone incompetent who wasn't a white male.
It is difficult to judge if someone has the right aptitude. I think technical tests are a waste of time. All they do is test things someone can look up, but they fail to test the ability to think and solve problems. Those are far more important that specific technical skills.
I think the claim that that our programmers and engineers are not world class is incorrect. South African companies are not that different to the average company anywhere.
The management problem partly stems from managers not coming from a technical background. This is difficult to fix because technical people are usually not keen to be managers and even when they are there is little support available to train them and give them management skills.
The trick is finding a good trade-off. Sometimes you deliberately put a project together in a hurry to grab a customer and block a competitor, then once you have the customer you spend more money trying to improve the product. This is still preferable to letting your competitor get the customer. At the same time you have to make sure you have some resources dedicated to doing things properly.
Same old story from companies. They treat their employees like rubbish, pay them peanuts and provide them with pathetic working conditions and then complain they don't get the sort of results places like google do. Perhaps these companies should have a long hard look at how google treats their employees and the results they get.
Roo!
Expert Member
My point is not to test the person on their level of skill (except maybe in a senior position) but rather to give them an aptitude test to test whether they can actually think like a developer.
Some really good posts here. Thanks ppl.
On the subject of skills. I was unable to go to varsity because I was poor. So did the very next best thing and I scrounged around, left no stone unturned and got myself a bursary from yours truly.. TELKOM. With that I was able to finish college with a National Diploma in electrical engineering. For this accomodation I had to endure 4 years of hell, working back my bursary in some of the most dangerous places in SA.
Notwithstanding that, what I do for a living is my passion, it has been my hobby since I was 10, and when I got here I had a great reputation. I worked for an automotive electronics outfit in Pretoria, it didn't pay all that well but my designs were excellent. They were field proven and the orders rolled in. We were getting more orders than we could produce for. It remains a great product and is sold all over the world now. So it goes without saying that, I know what I am doing.
Then I came here, and this whole degree vs. non-degree thing which then made me the subject of discrimination here. The truth is this, that I am actually BETTER than all the degreed folk here at engineering, and it was proven so (which was probably what caused all the **** here- I dared to show up all the furniture in this place) with a new product we launched when I started here.
I have now stagnated into a point where I detest coming here every day. It is now at the point where I am starting to take work in at home and try and slowly get enough business going to eventually resign here.
On the subject of skills. I was unable to go to varsity because I was poor. So did the very next best thing and I scrounged around, left no stone unturned and got myself a bursary from yours truly.. TELKOM. With that I was able to finish college with a National Diploma in electrical engineering. For this accomodation I had to endure 4 years of hell, working back my bursary in some of the most dangerous places in SA.
Notwithstanding that, what I do for a living is my passion, it has been my hobby since I was 10, and when I got here I had a great reputation. I worked for an automotive electronics outfit in Pretoria, it didn't pay all that well but my designs were excellent. They were field proven and the orders rolled in. We were getting more orders than we could produce for. It remains a great product and is sold all over the world now. So it goes without saying that, I know what I am doing.
Then I came here, and this whole degree vs. non-degree thing which then made me the subject of discrimination here. The truth is this, that I am actually BETTER than all the degreed folk here at engineering, and it was proven so (which was probably what caused all the **** here- I dared to show up all the furniture in this place) with a new product we launched when I started here.
I have now stagnated into a point where I detest coming here every day. It is now at the point where I am starting to take work in at home and try and slowly get enough business going to eventually resign here.