2010 German GP

BradBowlLlama said:
The only way that would work is if you do away with the drivers championship. Make it a team only sport. However, we all know there would be no F1 without the drivers championship so teams need to let their drivers battle it out on track. Doing it for the sake of the team is like kissing your sister. They will kick themselves if Alonso is injured and out of action till the end of the season.
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Tour de France? The team is only there so that one guy may win. Same in Nascar. Yet nobody gets upset about team orders in those sports. Even the Dakar rally has team orders.
 
I don't think the issue is that the result was manipulated; F1 is a team sport & anyone who watches with anything more than a passing interest knows this will happen now and again. In my view it's caused a huge uproar because:
  1. It was done in such a blatant fashion. There was no ambiguity in the instruction to Massa. Had they asked Massa to conserve fuel, or to otherwise nurse an emergent if fictitious niggle, nothing more would've been said.
  2. The fact that it was done so blatantly, from both Massa's and Smedley's side, raises questions about the relationships within Ferrari. It's another instance of infighting within a team put on public display.

It's complete conjecture on my side, but I'd speculate that the transmission to Massa we heard was not the first communication from his team in this regard. Massa reacted like a scolded teenager, going out of his way to make sure that everyone saw his tantrum. I'm half wondering whether prior, perhaps slightly more subtle, hints hadn't fallen on deaf ears...
 
Archer said:
Tour de France? The team is only there so that one guy may win. Same in Nascar. Yet nobody gets upset about team orders in those sports. Even the Dakar rally has team orders.
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Team orders in F1 were legal not too long ago - but the aren't now. Anyone who wants to watch car 2 support car 1 the whole season is welcome to it. I'd rather watch webber take vettel out trying to fight for position thanks.
 
BradBowlLlama said:
Team orders in F1 were legal not too long ago - but the aren't now. Anyone who wants to watch car 2 support car 1 the whole season is welcome to it. I'd rather watch webber take vettel out trying to fight for position thanks.
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But that's dumb, like in the 2008 championship. Mclaren had Alonso and Hamilton who could both win the title, and Ferrari had Kimi with an outside chance. Because the Mclaren drivers blew it trying to race each other, Kimi won the race and title.
 
WOW! What a coincidence that this happens not more than two weeks after Barrichelo was on Top Gear discussing when HE had to move over for Schumi.

Rob Smedly is THE man! He was urging Massa on the whole race, and one could tell his not being happy about the team orders. But otherwise a boring race, the only reason I watched all of it was to see how Ferrari was going to make the switch. And they did not even try to spice it up a little, it was so obvious...
 
I am a huge ferrari fan, this year though, more of a Massa fan, I dont like alonso one bit, what they did yesterday, its not fair... poor Massa, If it was the last race and alonso would win the drivers only if he won the race than sure, move over, but there is no way he is going to win the championship this year (I hope he doesn't) he is just too far off the points.
 
cr@zydude said:
But that's dumb, like in the 2008 championship. Mclaren had Alonso and Hamilton who could both win the title, and Ferrari had Kimi with an outside chance. Because the Mclaren drivers blew it trying to race each other, Kimi won the race and title.
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That's not dumb, it's racing rofl. It's what racing used to be about - think Prost vs Senna. That's racing!

Lauda's take:
http://www.planetf1.com/news/18227/6279787/Lauda-has-a-go-at-Alonso-and-Ferrari
Former F1 World Champ Niki Lauda has blasted Ferrari for the Scuderia's blatant use of team orders in Sunday's German GP.

In a coded message, but understood by all, Ferrari informed Felipe Massa that Fernando Alonso was the quicker than him, adding "can you confirm you understand that message?"

Shortly after, messaged demonstrated that he did understand and moved over, allowing Alonso to take the lead and the ultimately the victory.

Ferrari were later fined by the race stewards, however, in the post-race press conference, Alonso denied any knowledge of team orders being used.

"I've never heard a driver talk such bull****," Lauda told the Daily Mail. "He has no character.

"This was the most stupid thing I have ever seen from Ferrari.

"Why did they do it? They did not need to because the Championship is alive for another eight races.

"Why could Massa not have a chance to win, a year since he had the accident that could have cost his life?'
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Reasons Why Ferrari Were Wrong

http://www.planetf1.com/editorial/6278903/Why-Ferrari-Were-Wrong
Ferrari have been fined $100,000 for issuing a team order during the German GP. But they were in the wrong not just because they broke the rules...

1) Because It Was Blatant And Shameless
There was nothing subtle about the message given to Felipe Massa and though Rob Smedley's communication was phrased as a question only a naïve fool would have heard anything but an order. How could Ferrari not expect all of us to understand precisely what was being said? How could the team be so blatant? How could they be so shameless?

Team orders are nothing new in F1. But the outlawing of such directives is a relatively-new matter and the real outrage of Ferrari's machinations is that they didn't even have the decency to be subtle about it. They thought themselves untouchable and they thought the rest of us to be gullible fools.

The what was terrible; the how was utterly scandalous.

2) Because Ferrari Continued To Handle It So Very Badly
For a little while after the race there was a nagging suspicion that the team might had forgotten that this was the first grand prix in which all radio communications were available to television. Then came the realisation they really thought they'd get away with it: the adamant denials, all made without so much as a red cheek of a shamed-face, culminating in the laughable how-stupid-do-they-think-we are? claim that Alonso only took the lead because "Massa made a small mistake when shifting up three gears at once". It would be funny if only it wasn't so mocking.

Perhaps, just perhaps, if they had respected our intelligence, and offered a hint of remorse rather than insisted it was all Massa's doing, then it wouldn't have felt quite so outrageous.

A summons to the stewards was their just deserts. With the call to account only being made an hour after the race, it was apparent that it was the public's outrage at their appalling arrogance that belatedly put them in the dock.

In one critical regard, Coulthard is entirely right. The rule needs to be re-written. It needs to state that 'team orders are banned unless the team concerned have sufficient public relations skill and savvy to handle the inevitable outcry without insulting the public and making an embarrassment of themselves as well as the sport'.

3) Because Team Orders Are Banned For A Good Reason
It was Ferrari's manipulation of the Austrian GP in 2002 that prompted the FIA to ban team orders and though reflection on this weekend will quickly descend into a debate of semantics, and the question of whether Smedley's words were sufficiently coded to protect the team from punishment, the centrepiece for all discussions ought to be the reminder of why such instructions are illegal.

On the BBC, David Coulthard described the rule as "silly", but there speaketh a man who has only ever looked at F1 from the inside. It is the people looking from the outside, ie the fans and viewing public, for whom the rule is written so that they are not denied a sporting spectacle and a contest that at least contains a semblance of fairness. We tune in for races, not manipulation.

A wider perspective on this weekend's ugly matter is that team orders are the fine line between F1 being a team sport and being in the business of entertainment. Ferrari dived, two-footed across the line because whatever benefit they achieved from appearing to manipulate the result was miniscule compared to the loss endured by the viewing public expecting a race to the finish. Ferrari didn't just break the rules, they cheated us.

4) Because It Was Appallingly Hypocritical
It was only two races ago that Alonso jumped upon his high horse and castigated the Valencia race stewards for "manipulating" the result. Oh the irony of hindsight.

5) Because The Reason Given To Massa Was Invalid
The red herring of the follow-ups to come will be the data proving or disproving that Alonso was indeed faster than Massa. It matters not. Felipe's response to being told that "Fernando is faster" should have been "so what?" There is no right of way in F1 given to a faster car stuck behind a slower vehicle. If Fernando was faster, then overtake. That's his job. Overtaking is a skill to be performed, not a charity to be handed out.

6) Because Fernando Shouldn't Need Help
As the highest-paid driver in the sport, there are reputedly 30 millions reasons of pounds sterling why Alonso shouldn't need assistance from the pitwall. By not staying neutral in the official view of the stewards, and by denying Alonso the chance to claim victory without interference, Ferrari have tainted both his win and reputation. Will he care about that or about the additional points garnered? It is a question that ought not need asking.

7) Because It Was Too Early In The Season For Team Orders To Be Issued In Any Circumstances
The morals of team orders are ambiguous and permanently shaded in grey. Even the sanctimonious among us will admit that in some circumstances and some times, team orders are an acceptable mechanism for operation. In 2008, for instance, Kimi Raikkonen slowed down to enable Massa to win in China. In 2007 at Brazil, Massa slowed down to let Raikkonen past to claim victory and title. But that was different. It was at the clutch end of the season and there was only one Ferrari driver in contention for the title. A blind-eye was turned because everyone understood the circumstances.

Though it is impossible to state where the dividing line exists, and at which point of the season team orders do become acceptable if not palatable, the answer is not to be found at the halfway stage of a year's campaign. Ferrari's scarcely-coded instruction to Massa was wrong because it was so blatant, so shameless, and so insulting. It was also wrong because it could not be justified as a necessary evil at this stage of the season.

With eight races still to be run, 200 points remain up for grabs. Ferrari's manoeuvring brought Alonso an additional seven. The numbers, compared to the inevitable fuss generated, simply don't add up.

Nor do they justify Massa's second billing. Were he to have prevailed in Sunday's race, he would have arrived in Hungary just 24 points - the equivalent of less than a single race win - behind his team-mate. Ferrari didn't just manipulate the result of a solitary race. In effect, they announced that only one of their drivers is contending in the World Championship.

8) Because Of The Effect It Will Have On Massa
When the dust settles, so will the rankle. Though the outcry will simmer and the next controversy will soon arrive to refocus attention, one half of the Ferrari garage will still know it is second class.

A clairvoyant is hardly required to predict that this episode will damage team harmony, attract discord and impinge on Massa's future performance and results. His morale will be at rock bottom after - apparently - learning that he is not allowed to beat Alonso in a straight fight.

9) Because Ferrari Brought Rob Smedley Into It
The relationship between Massa and Smedley is too strong for it to be seriously damaged by his role of messenger in this sorry episode. But that's no excuse for Ferrari requiring him to do their dirty work. The potential risk of Smedley's involvement harming driver-engineer relations was reason enough to expect somebody else on the pitwall to front up.

10) Because Ferrari Have Turned A Great Story Into A Great Shame
It's not merely that the team have committed a gross act of sporting indecency, insulted and cheated the public, harmed team relations, and affected a PR disaster. They've also missed a PR open goal.

For what better story could there have been on the anniversary of Massa's brush with mortality than his first victory since nearly being blinded in Hungary? Ferrari have turned a great story into a PR disaster. Winners of their first 1-2 since the opening race of the season, the team have contrived to make themselves into the weekend's big losers. What a terrible error of judgement.
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The most interesting part of the F1 this past weekend was the post race interview.
Sad, but true
 
Guess if you a Brazillian driver, dont drive for Ferarri!!
 
cr@zydude said:
Sure it's racing, but in the end the team lost out!
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I hear you, but as fans, we have to be blunt...
I don't care cos I watch for the action!

I guess I also don't see the point of paying hundreds of bucks to advertise for the big corporates, but some do... thinking branded cr@p. Pop culture has changed, I don't buy it all.
 
Whats the possibility for Massa to win the championship if he wins every GP from now?
 
It's 25 points per race and there are still 8 races - that makes 200 points up for grabs. Massa is on 80 points atm with Alonso on 123 points. Alonso was only 33 points ahead when he took Massa - that's just over a win, it's like 14 points in last season's championship.

Hamilton is in the lead with 157 points. That's 77 more than Massa has. Massa would have to gain 77 points more than Hamilton before the end to beat him. Thats fractionally more than 3 race wins vs 3 DNFs in 8 races. Its quite possible. There are still many points in it and anything can happen.
 
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