5.8 MG vs. 2.4 MG?

[leoki]

Snowball wireless ISP is offering 5.8 MGhertz frequency, which it claims to be far superior to the "normal" 2.4 MGhertz frequency used by most ISPs. Does any of you have experience with 5.8 MGh connectivity and how does it compare with the 2.4 MGh?

 

[skydog]

Snowball wireless ISP is offering 5.8 MGhertz frequency, which it claims to be far superior to the "normal" 2.4 MGhertz frequency used by most ISPs. Does any of you have experience with 5.8 MGh connectivity and how does it compare with the 2.4 MGh?

Welcome to the forum.

5.8GHz is far less polluted then the 2.4GHz spectrum so there would probably be a better connection. but 5.8 cannot go as far as 2.4 all things equal.

 

[dominic]

leoki

must wisps seem to use a combination of the two (5.8 GHz for their backhaul) but there does seem to be a trend towards 5.8 - as skydog says mainly due to increasing interference issues in 2.4

there is a process under way at ICASA to better define acceptable usage of the 5.7 - 5.8 Ghz bands

 

[RichardP]

the WISP's better be carefull of 5.8Ghz. Its less polluted for a reason as Vodacom, CelC, MTN, iBurst,Telkom all use that frequency for data backhaul.

If someone goes and uses those channels without research and interferes with one of the licensensed operators, then ICASA will step in and close the 5.8Ghz channels for all of us. It only takes 1 incident. IMHO, the WISP shoud not offer 5.8Ghz links to customer equipment... but rather apply for their own frequency from ICASA and not screw up the ISM band for commercial gain.

 

[dominic]

the WISP's better be carefull of 5.8Ghz. Its less polluted for a reason as Vodacom, CelC, MTN, iBurst,Telkom all use that frequency for data backhaul.

If someone goes and uses those channels without research and interferes with one of the licensensed operators, then ICASA will step in and close the 5.8Ghz channels for all of us. It only takes 1 incident. IMHO, the WISP shoud not offer 5.8Ghz links to customer equipment... but rather apply for their own frequency from ICASA and not screw up the ISM band for commercial gain.

fair comment but a little alarmist perhaps

telkom uses 2.4 for its backhaul in certain areas and there have been numerous instances of complaints from them which ICASA has dealt with on a case by case basis

they cannot close ISM bands as we are bound by the ITU regulations to respect them as frequency licnece free bands

 

[RichardP]

fair comment but a little alarmist perhaps

telkom uses 2.4 for its backhaul in certain areas and there have been numerous instances of complaints from them which ICASA has dealt with on a case by case basis

they cannot close ISM bands as we are bound by the ITU regulations to respect them as frequency licnece free bands

Yeah.. It was a bit extreme... but at the end of it, if everyone on a highsite thinks that 2.4 and 5.8ghz is a free-for-all needs to think again. Some sites I visit dont have a 2.4Ghz channel avaliable.. and its all noise... Regulation? there is none. The last thing I want happening is that the spillover from 2.4Ghz can think 5.8Ghz is now a free-for-all and screw that part of the spectrum up too.

I am not an advocate of "Everything for Free" but without Order, there is Chaos.

 

[daffy]

telkom uses 2.4 for its backhaul in certain areas and there have been numerous instances of complaints from them which ICASA has dealt with on a case by case basis

About that.. the ISM agreement also states that ICASA wont entertain any complaints about interference in 2.4Ghz.

Why then, is it that Telkom gets to complain, and other people get crapped on for interfering with them?

 

[dominic]

About that.. the ISM agreement also states that ICASA wont entertain any complaints about interference in 2.4Ghz.

Why then, is it that Telkom gets to complain, and other people get crapped on for interfering with them?

yet to get a straight answer on this but i would imagine they have a licence to use the frequency - afaik they do grant licences for certain uses in ISM

a better answer however is probably just because they are telkom

 

[captainwifi]

dominic somewhere you mentioned that you got equipment confiscated
by customes under the RICA act back.

How for example does www.waveip.com get their 5.8ghz Wimax gear past
customes. We all know that skommelTel has done some heavy bribing to
prevent 'relevent' officials from type approving Wimax gear.

What are your fees. What procedures does one follow, if you would be
so kind as to elaborate

Thank you

 

[dominic]

there is no magic - one just has to demonstrate that the equipment has a legitimate use and any permits/approvals/licences have been obtained

 

[captainwifi]

Ok let me try this once more. I have absolutely no idea how to demonstrate anything.
Permit - for a Dslam? Telkom will never allow Icasa to do this. If I land R50000 worth of Zyxel Dslam2+ (100meg up/down) and I have to phone you, it would at least be nice if you could somehow let me know what you are going to charge me! Thanks

 

[dominic]

Ok let me try this once more. I have absolutely no idea how to demonstrate
anything. If I land R50000 worth of Zyxel Dslam2+ (100meg up/down) and
I have to phone you, it would at least be nice if you could somehow let me
know what you are going to charge me!
Thanks

rates are variable on the basis of the potential pain and frustration that the client may be bring to the party and for that and other reasons not posted on public forums

 

[daffy]

If I land R50000 worth of Zyxel Dslam2+ (100meg up/down) and I have to phone you, it would at least be nice if you could somehow let me know what you are going to charge me! Thanks

Where are you finding a DSL technology that allows you to do 100mbit up and down?

Sure, a DSLAM may have a 10/100 Ethernet port, but as far as the actual long range copper side of things go, you'll never get that.

 

[captainwifi]

Daffy 100meg up/down on a single twisted pair copper wire is known as Vdsl2 see this link:
http://www.dslforum.org/learndsl/aboutvdsl.shtml

A http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DSLAM Dslam is essentialy a massive switch, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_switch. Telkom uses Dslams for it's last-mile connectivity to residential houses. Each Dslam port connects eight Adsl modems unto a single twisted pair copper wire. http://www.zyxel.com is the prefered Dslam vendor due to it's low cost and reliability. Do a search on www.froogle.com with the words [Zyxel, Dslam, Vdsl] for retailers and prices. The smallest form factor is an eight-port mini-Dslam. A max of eight Adsl modems connects to a single twisted pair copper wire. Each port connects to a twisted pair coppper wire. Eight Dslams can be daisychained in series creating a communications network extending over 12km-30km depending on which Dslam technology is used. Vdsl and Vdsl2 can operate with legacy Adsl modems on the same line. Thus users that don't wish to upgrade to Vdsl modems don't need to. An eight port Dslam is known as a mini-Dslam. The largest Dslam has 200 ports.

Dslams and Adsl modems communicate via the ATM (Asincronous Transfer Protocol). ATM uses fixed packet widths while Ethernet uses variable packet widths. It is simply outrageous that Icasa isn't allowing the IT industry
to import this stuf. How Icasa -you bafoon- is transmitting fixed packets down a copper line going to cause interference to Telkom's equipment but not
variable packets?!

There are four types of Dslams: Adsl, Adsl2+, Vdsl and Vdsl2
Mini-DSL Dslam: ~R1000
Adsl modem: R500
Upstream: 512k. Transmission distance 5km.
Downstream: 1meg. Distance 7km

Mini-ADSL2+ Dslam: ~R3000
Adsl2+ modem: R500
Upstream: 1meg Transmission distance 4km.
Downstream: 24meg/modem Distance 4km

Mini-VDSL Dslam: ~R6000
Vdsl modem: R1000
Upstream: 5meg/modem. Transmission distance 1.5km - 5km.
Downstream: 50meg/modem. Distance 5km

Mini-VDSL2 Dslam: ~R8000
Vdsl2 modem: R1500
Upstream: 100meg/modem. Distance 1.5km - 5km.
Downstream: 100meg/modem. Distance 5km.

And gentlemen as I have been trying to explain that nothing beats a Dslam on a cost/performance basis for
connecting 30/40/200 residences/offices in close proximity. This is simply a technically correct statement.
Please seperate the Technical from the Legal and Social implications of using Dslam technology.
Technically it is much easier to plant telephone poles than hanging around the roof like an ape trying to get fresnel zone clearance and polluting our spectrum and thus destroying the killer app - Wimax
Legally as we have discussed is no problem at all.
Socially. Now this is the main crises, but largely because people don't understand the technical and legal issues surrounding the creation of community communication. By leveraging all available technologies Wimax/Mesh/GPRS/Fiber/Dslam in the most sensible and applicable manner we could rapidly transform our society and
economy.

Is what I am saying really this complicated to understand?????????

 

[daffy]

Daffy 100meg up/down on a single twisted pair copper wire is known as Vdsl2 see this link:
http://www.dslforum.org/learndsl/aboutvdsl.shtml

A http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DSLAM Dslam is essentialy a massive switch, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_switch. Telkom uses Dslams for it's last-mile connectivity to residential houses. Each Dslam port connects eight Adsl modems unto a single twisted pair copper wire. http://www.zyxel.com is the prefered Dslam vendor due to it's low cost and reliability. Do a search on www.froogle.com with the words [Zyxel, Dslam, Vdsl] for retailers and prices. The smallest form factor is an eight-port mini-Dslam. A max of eight Adsl modems connects to a single twisted pair copper wire. Each port connects to a twisted pair coppper wire. Eight Dslams can be daisychained in series creating a communications network extending over 12km-30km depending on which Dslam technology is used. Vdsl and Vdsl2 can operate with legacy Adsl modems on the same line. Thus users that don't wish to upgrade to Vdsl modems don't need to. An eight port Dslam is known as a mini-Dslam. The largest Dslam has 200 ports.

Dslams and Adsl modems communicate via the ATM (Asincronous Transfer Protocol). ATM uses fixed packet widths while Ethernet uses variable packet widths. It is simply outrageous that Icasa isn't allowing the IT industry
to import this stuf. How Icasa -you bafoon- is transmitting fixed packets down a copper line going to cause interference to Telkom's equipment but not
variable packets?!

There are four types of Dslams: Adsl, Adsl2+, Vdsl and Vdsl2
Mini-DSL Dslam: ~R1000
Adsl modem: R500
Upstream: 512k. Transmission distance 5km.
Downstream: 1meg. Distance 7km

Mini-ADSL2+ Dslam: ~R3000
Adsl2+ modem: R500
Upstream: 1meg Transmission distance 4km.
Downstream: 24meg/modem Distance 4km

Mini-VDSL Dslam: ~R6000
Vdsl modem: R1000
Upstream: 5meg/modem. Transmission distance 1.5km - 5km.
Downstream: 50meg/modem. Distance 5km

Mini-VDSL2 Dslam: ~R8000
Vdsl2 modem: R1500
Upstream: 100meg/modem. Distance 1.5km - 5km.
Downstream: 100meg/modem. Distance 5km.

(quoted for truth)

Oh man.. where to begin ripping this one apart.
Lets start with this.. There are already people importing DSLAMs and DSL modems. And no, I'm not going to tell you who, its been going on for years, you find them.

Next, DSL is a physical layer technology. It can be ATM or Ethernet.

Only a Copper pair can only be used by 1 DSL link. Look at the way the DSL techs work. They use all the high frequencies on the line. How can you have more than 1 modem using the same frequencies? You cant. Catch a clue.

VDSL2 is great, but at those prices, and with such restricted distances, It would work out better to run Fibre. Especially considering that to achieve those high speeds, you need 2 copper pairs (thats 4 wires, not 2)

ADSL can get up to 8mbit/s down and 1mbit/s up.
In the middle is ADSL2, which is capable of 12mbit/s down
ADSL2+ can get up to 3.5mbit/s upstream. As you say.. look it up on wikipedia

There are a multitude of other xDSL technologies available, you seem to have forgotten about HDSL, S.HDSL, SDSL.. The list goes on.

So people.. we've learned something valuable here tonight..
People with half a clue, are more dangerous than people who actually know whats going on, because they wont hesitate to open their mouths to let everyone know.

 

[daffy]

And gentlemen as I have been trying to explain that nothing beats a Dslam on a cost/performance basis for
connecting 30/40/200 residences/offices in close proximity. This is simply a technically correct statement.
Please seperate the Technical from the Legal and Social implications of using Dslam technology.
Technically it is much easier to plant telephone poles than hanging around the roof like an ape trying to get fresnel zone clearance and polluting our spectrum and thus destroying the killer app - Wimax
Legally as we have discussed is no problem at all.
Socially. Now this is the main crises, but largely because people don't understand the technical and legal issues surrounding the creation of community communication. By leveraging all available technologies Wimax/Mesh/GPRS/Fiber/Dslam in the most sensible and applicable manner we could rapidly transform our society and
economy.

Is what I am saying really this complicated to understand?????????

(quoted, again, for truth)

Tell you what.. you, dig up a whole bunch of holes, put up telephone poles, and string some cable along them. I'll stand on the roof and mount an antenna. We'll see who gets it done first.

Wimax is not the killer solution to all our problems. Its all hype. Anyone who believes that 1 standard is going to be the silver bullet to cure all telecoms ailments, needs a bullet to the head.

 

[RichardP]

Captainwifi .. no-one asked you.

 

[Obelix]

Ok let me try this once more. I have absolutely no idea how to demonstrate anything.
Permit - for a Dslam? Telkom will never allow Icasa to do this. If I land R50000 worth of Zyxel Dslam2+ (100meg up/down) and I have to phone you, it would at least be nice if you could somehow let me know what you are going to charge me! Thanks

I had a Zyxel modem once. Wont fall for that one again.

 

[Obelix]

the WISP's better be carefull of 5.8Ghz. Its less polluted for a reason as Vodacom, CelC, MTN, iBurst,Telkom all use that frequency for data backhaul.

If someone goes and uses those channels without research and interferes with one of the licensensed operators, then ICASA will step in and close the 5.8Ghz channels for all of us. It only takes 1 incident. IMHO, the WISP shoud not offer 5.8Ghz links to customer equipment... but rather apply for their own frequency from ICASA and not screw up the ISM band for commercial gain.

Not gonna happen. ISM bands are open worldwide. The govt Gazette specifically states that icasa will NOT handle interferance issues in the ISM bands. More reason for us to police ourselves.

*i just heard of a case where this did happend, but it was overturned at a lter stage again, so..... draw your own conclusions. Are you prepared to take on Telkom & icasa on ISM pollution? *

 

[mufasa]

anyone have the link to the BullSh*t generator captain is using ?