A Neuroscience Question

[Nanfeishen]

Simple question ,

Is it possible for one human being to intentionally affect or disrupt the motor neurons of another human being through touch ?

Reason for asking :

I have been involved with Taiji and Qigong practice for over 25 years, and like most practitioners encounter the whole "Qi" or "Chi" question on many occasions.
Firstly i dont believe in "Qi" as some "energy" that flows through the body etc etc, however i do believe that what is experienced by some is a combination of very fine body mechanics, Bioelectromagnetism or bioelectricity and concentrated mental intention , i.e. Body and mind working in perfect balance to produce a result.
The following occured on a recent trip to Taiwan :
While doing some partner work with a particular master, after about 5 minutes my legs began to wobble and simply gave out and he literally dropped me with 2 fingers pressing on my elbow area, and held me on down that my body would not respond to trying to get up.
This happened not once , but a number of times each time a different technique, each time the same helpless feeling of loss of control of the ability to rise from the floor.
He not only did this to me but a number of other students, both western and chinese. The westerners all described the same experience.
He doesnt speak English, and none of the westerners spoke any Chinese, so there was no "power of suggestion", unless the power of suggestion crosses language barriers, in which case that opens up a whole other can of worms.
The teacher gave us a rather good lecture after he had finished about what can be achieved with understanding of "Qi" after he demonstrated all this, via an interpreter so we were not expecting anything of the sort in any way.

Since the body has electrical properties, i therefore considered the possibility that a few high level practioners of some arts, may have the ability to "interfere" with or somehow "disrupt" , maybe even influence someone else's motor neurons through physical touch or physical contact and with actual intent , thereby achieving the effects experienced.
Hence the question.

/quietly dons flame suit and waits

 

[azbob]

Sorcery!

 

[FNfal]

I believe in chi (Bio electromagnetism) call it what you want i have seen it work .The mind is very powerful and i dont believe it can be simply explained.

 

[Nick333]

Simple question ,

Is it possible for one human being to intentionally affect or disrupt the motor neurons of another human being through touch ?

Reason for asking :

I have been involved with Taiji and Qigong practice for over 25 years, and like most practitioners encounter the whole "Qi" or "Chi" question on many occasions.
Firstly i dont believe in "Qi" as some "energy" that flows through the body etc etc, however i do believe that what is experienced by some is a combination of very fine body mechanics, Bioelectromagnetism or bioelectricity and concentrated mental intention , i.e. Body and mind working in perfect balance to produce a result.
The following occured on a recent trip to Taiwan :
While doing some partner work with a particular master, after about 5 minutes my legs began to wobble and simply gave out and he literally dropped me with 2 fingers pressing on my elbow area, and held me on down that my body would not respond to trying to get up.
This happened not once , but a number of times each time a different technique, each time the same helpless feeling of loss of control of the ability to rise from the floor.
He not only did this to me but a number of other students, both western and chinese. The westerners all described the same experience.
He doesnt speak English, and none of the westerners spoke any Chinese, so there was no "power of suggestion", unless the power of suggestion crosses language barriers, in which case that opens up a whole other can of worms.
The teacher gave us a rather good lecture after he had finished about what can be achieved with understanding of "Qi" after he demonstrated all this, via an interpreter so we were not expecting anything of the sort in any way.

Since the body has electrical properties, i therefore considered the possibility that a few high level practioners of some arts, may have the ability to "interfere" with or somehow "disrupt" , maybe even influence someone else's motor neurons through physical touch or physical contact and with actual intent , thereby achieving the effects experienced.
Hence the question.

/quietly dons flame suit and waits

I'm not saying no, but I think it would be more likely that someone could master the use of body language to the same effect. I'm not going to be able to provide links or references, but I vaguely recall a Japanese martial art that uses subtle body language to cause momentary paralysis in opponents (just long enough to punch him in the teeth). That and something similar to the study of movement and balance found in Akido with a whole lot of spit and polish might give you something approaching what you describe.

 

[Nick333]

I believe in chi (Bio electromagnetism) call it what you want i have seen it work .The mind is very powerful and i dont believe it can be simply explained.

Why is a simple explanation always necessary for people who believe in this sort of thing?

Like, you can't explain it simply so it's true?

 

[agentrfr]

Living things have EM fields, as do humans. I guess with enough practise someone could "fire" all their neurons at the same time, making a small EM "pulse" if you will. This pulse wont be nearly powerful enough to make a pocket compass needle move, but I guess that if you hit the other guy with the right frequency you could "wobble" his EM field a bit, and in turn confuse his neurons.

It would be foiled by a tinfoil hat / breastplate though. Next time you go, do that. Wear a tinfoil hat and breastplate, see if it happens again

 

[Geriatrix]

Ok, I'm going to give you my 100% honest opinion here and you won't like like it Nan.

It's all fake. About as true as Reiki, crystal healing and those little veils of water the homeopaths reckons cures every ailment.

I've been doing Taijiquan near on 4 years now, as discussed with you via pm a few years ago. Not very long, sure, but I should have seen enough by now, if it was at all to be a useful skill to develop. Regular weekly qigoing practice and all the icing on the cake. And now, thinking back, I have never, ever even once experienced anything that makes me even remotely suspect qi is a real phenomena. Too me, its this joker card Chinese martial instructors seem to cling to to try and separate themselves from other forms of martial arts. At class almost everyone spoke about feeling chi and, with eyes wide and shiny, proclaiming how cool it all is. But to be honest they're just deluding themselves. In my opinion of course.

What taijiquan has given me though, is a well developed and coordinated body, fine motor skills and a very good feel of balance and weight and mechanics. And where to press, grip, bend or hit the body to cause quite a lot of pain. It even sorted out some chronic back pain issues I had. Almost completely
None of which need qi skills. I would wager, in fact, that ballet or gymnastics mixed with krav maga would actually yield better results.

Now sure, I haven't met any old and remote masters but I've met people doing this diligently for longer than even you have. And I'm not convinced.

I wasn't with you on your trip and didn't push with your master. But I'm skeptical. You say you've been doing this for over 25 years and if i recall it's how you make a living. Don't you think that is some pretty heavy motivation to try and believe in all of this? Admitting qi to be wishful thinking would almost be like giving up a quarter of your life.

Extraordinary claims and all that.

To sum it up, here's some videos.
[video=youtube;gEDaCIDvj6I]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I[/video]

and here's a thread
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=45804&page=1

 

[Nanfeishen]

I vaguely recall a Japanese martial art that uses subtle body language to cause momentary paralysis in opponents (just long enough to punch him in the teeth). That and something similar to the study of movement and balance found in Akido with a whole lot of spit and polish might give you something approaching what you describe.

Will look into that one, thanks

It would be foiled by a tinfoil hat / breastplate though. Next time you go, do that. Wear a tinfoil hat and breastplate, see if it happens again

I'll keep that one in mind

I believe in chi (Bio electromagnetism) call it what you want i have seen it work .The mind is very powerful and i dont believe it can be simply explained.

Having been around Chinese MA for the amount of time i have, i know "something" exists that is beyond just simple physical ability.

I have only ever experienced what i explained above on very few occasions in all my time involved with these practices.

I do know that to the unpracticed eye many things are attributed to "Qi" in the martial arts, that are in fact very fine motor skills, very subtle physical movements combined with a very clear understanding of body mechanics and the ability to see imperfections in the way somebody stands or holds themselves that allow one to easily offset their balance and thereby move them with little to no effort.
I also know that the mind , or how you think about a movement can and does effect the outcome of the movement.
i.e. You can try this for youself
Stand comfortably with feet apart + - shoulder width, get someone to hold both your wrists tightly just above the joint down in front of you.
Make sure your hands are about a foot in front of your body roughly waist high fingers dangling downward.
DONT think about or concentrate on the pressure of your opponents hands, think about and concentrate on relaxing your arms.
Once you feel completely relaxed in the arms do the following:
1) "flick" both of you hands suddenly forward so the fingers point towards your opponent, simultaneously pushing slightly forward with you wrists, if done properly, you should easily move or shift your opponent off balance and backwards.
2) "flick" the fingers of your right hand sharply upwards, while at the same time "flick" the fingers of your left hand sharply downward, lift forward and upward very slightly with your right hand and draw downward and backward very slightly with your left hand while doing this. You should rather easily shift the person holding to their right.
Look at the person in front of you while doing so, and think about the result you want, in other words focus and intention.
With a little practice it should be easy
Try the same but concentrate on the persons hand holding your wrists and dont look directly at the person, see the difference

These are "tricks" that to the unpracticed eye may seem like "Qi' being demonstrated, but is actually just a little exercise in body mechanics and how thought affects movement.
Some teachers i have met do this sort of thing and others with such ease and almost complete lack of motion that one does wonder even to a the practiced eye.

However when no part of your body responds when someone touches you, while you are seriously willing your body to move, thats a different story.

As one teacher said : "Dont confuse good "Gong Fu" (skill and understanding) with "Qi"

So i am still trying to know if one persons focus and intention can influence another person to such an extent that it can interfere with their ability to respond physically.
If i can understand it physically and mentally, i can visualise it, if i can visualise it, i should be able to achieve it (with a little practice of course )

 

[Geriatrix]

another video because the forum seems to be a nanny
[video=youtube;KJr2BdUTYkU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJr2BdUTYkU&feature=related[/video]

 

[Nanfeishen]

Ok, I'm going to give you my 100% honest opinion here and you won't like like it Nan.

On the contrary

I've been doing Taijiquan near on 4 years now, as discussed with you via pm a few years ago. Not very long, sure, but I should have seen enough by now, if it was at all to be a useful skill to develop. Regular weekly qigoing practice and all the icing on the cake. And now, thinking back, I have never, ever even once experienced anything that makes me even remotely suspect qi is a real phenomena. Too me, its this joker card Chinese martial instructors seem to cling to to try and separate themselves from other forms of martial arts. At class almost everyone spoke about feeling chi and, with eyes wide and shiny, proclaiming how cool it all is. But to be honest they're just deluding themselves. In my opinion of course.

I couldnt agree with you more, and its something i detest about many teachers.

I did a demo a few years ago to a group of "new agers" and was a little nervous in doing it so i had a case of "the shakes" and my hands shook slightly through the demo.
I had one or two of them come up to me afterwards and tell me how they could see the the "Qi" vibrating through my hands while i was demoing
Seriously :wtf:
Now i know there are teachers who would have milked that mindset, i never went back again.

What taijiquan has given me though, is a well developed and coordinated body, fine motor skills and a very good feel of balance and weight and mechanics. And where to press, grip, bend or hit the body to cause quite a lot of pain. It even sorted out some chronic back pain issues I had. Almost completely
None of which need qi skills. I would wager, in fact, that ballet or gymnastics mixed with krav maga would actually yield better results.

The slow repetative motion of Taiji would still be best for your back, i have a bad lower back and even Gong Fu messes it up or throws it out again from time to time, Although so does my couch occasionaly

You say you've been doing this for over 25 years and if i recall it's how you make a living. Don't you think that is some pretty heavy motivation to try and believe in all of this? Admitting qi to be wishful thinking would almost be like giving up a quarter of your life.
Extraordinary claims and all that.

Actually and in all honesty, it doesnt really phase me, either way. I know about skill and understand the need for skill, and that is what counts at the end of the day.
Practice and practice, and then practice some more, and when you are tired and sore keep practicing.

I am not trying to "believe", but trying to understand. I believe their is a difference.

 

[Geriatrix]

Actually and in all honesty, it doesnt really phase me, either way. I know about skill and understand the need for skill, and that is what counts at the end of the day.
Practice and practice, and then practice some more, and when you are tired and sore keep practicing.

I am not trying to "believe", but trying to understand. I believe their is a difference.

Good! Because even though this qi thing seems to permeate through the whole tradition(I blame Cheng Fu) I think Taiqiquan is actually a very cool, subtle and a little backhanded martial arts. Yang Luchan didn't get his reputation because he was good at party tricks. But, it is a martial arts with physical exercises and requires training, not voodoo.

 

[Nanfeishen]

Good! Because even though this qi thing seems to permeate through the whole tradition(I blame Cheng Fu) I think Taiqiquan is actually a very cool, subtle and a little backhanded martial arts. Yang Luchan didn't get his reputation because he was good at party tricks. But, it is a martial arts with physical exercises and requires training, not voodoo.

I am puzzled by this statement, as Yang Cheng Fu was also regarded as a fighter with great skill.

 

[Geriatrix]

I am puzzled by this statement, as Yang Cheng Fu was also regarded as a fighter with great skill.

From what I understand he turned it into dance class for financial reasons. For health, the pay off line went. I bet he would have milked your shaking incident for all it was worth.

Compare his recorded training methods with those of Ban Hao, Lu Chan, Jian Hao and,of course, the parent tradition Chen style. Those people trained proper martial arts.

 

[Nanfeishen]

From what I understand he turned it into dance class for financial reasons. For health, the pay off line went. I bet he would have milked your shaking incident for all it was worth.

Compare his recorded training methods with those of Ban Hao, Lu Chan, Jian Hao and,of course, the parent tradition Chen style. Those people trained proper martial arts.

Ah ! Okay !

Yang Cheng Fu altered the form so as to teach it openly to the public to promote health and promote the style in general. Before that it was "closed" to the general public.
He omitted the fast movements in the form, slowed down the kicks and de-emphasized the points where force was meant to be used so that the form became easier for people with health issues and problems to learn. This is the version that was taught publicly to promote the art, and also to ensure that it survived.
Privately and when he taught other martial artists students he didnt do that.
He taught a few guys who were also renowned fighters of great skill such as Dong Ying Jie and Han Qing-Tang
What was taught publicly and privately were different principles.
I can say i can vouch for this as my old master in Foshan, China trained in the Jing Woo Association under Yang Shou-chung (Yang Cheng Fu's son) and everything he has ever shown has always been very practical and combat directed.

Yang Lu-ch'an (Yang Style founder) -> Yang Chien-hou -> Yang Ch'eng-fu -> Yang Shou-chung -> Master Ou Rong Ju -> Derek Frearson (Head of ITSWA) - > me

I do the same, i teach at a certain Gym group and teach the forms focusing on health only, while at the Martial Arts school where i teach i cover the applications and martial aspects of the art.
Its not an uncommon practice for teachers to do this.
I am sure in generations to come the decendants of the two groups of students will land up having the same debate about whether or not i taught the health only or the practical as well.

 

[Geriatrix]

Ah ! Okay !

Yang Cheng Fu altered the form so as to teach it openly to the public to promote health and promote the style in general. Before that it was "closed" to the general public.
He omitted the fast movements in the form, slowed down the kicks and de-emphasized the points where force was meant to be used so that the form became easier for people with health issues and problems to learn. This is the version that was taught publicly to promote the art, and also to ensure that it survived.
Privately and when he taught other martial artists students he didnt do that.
He taught a few guys who were also renowned fighters of great skill such as Dong Ying Jie and Han Qing-Tang
What was taught publicly and privately were different principles.
I can say i can vouch for this as my old master in Foshan, China trained in the Jing Woo Association under Yang Shou-chung (Yang Cheng Fu's son) and everything he has ever shown has always been very practical and combat directed.

Yang Lu-ch'an (Yang Style founder) -> Yang Chien-hou -> Yang Ch'eng-fu -> Yang Shou-chung -> Master Ou Rong Ju -> Derek Frearson (Head of ITSWA) - > me

I do the same, i teach at a certain Gym group and teach the forms focusing on health only, while at the Martial Arts school where i teach i cover the applications and martial aspects of the art.
Its not an uncommon practice for teachers to do this.
I am sure in generations to come the decendants of the two groups of students will land up having the same debate about whether or not i taught the health only or the practical as well.

Exactly. In my mind he is responsible for turning Taiqiquan into Taichi. Hippy ballet.
For example, take your average taichi student and put him/her in the ring with your average wing chun student. Press play and watch. What will you see?

 

[Nanfeishen]

Exactly. In my mind he is responsible for turning Taiqiquan into Taichi. Hippy ballet.

Seriously ? :wtf:
Yang Cheng Fu is still recognised today all over China as a master of martial arts and a very good fighter, not as some health expert.
It is also acknowledged by his writings and recorded notations that he viewed Taijiquan as a combat art first and formost, however he also recognised that it had a secondary benefit of being a very powerful way to promote and improve peoples general health and well being.

Simple fact , all teachers modify their styles in some way. Yang Lu Chan modified Chen Taiji to create Yang Taiji, Wu Quan Yu modified Yang Taiji to create Wu Taiji and so on etc etc.

Do some research and read a bit more about the life and times of these people before making silly statements.

For example, take your average taichi student and put him/her in the ring with your average wing chun student. Press play and watch. What will you see?

This again

1) There are so many variables it is impossible to determine.

2) There are 11 branches of Wing Chun, each performs and practices the movements and techniques in their own unique way, so which lineage ?

3) Both arts have their merits both arts have their weaknesses.

There are no quick fixes in any Martial Art, No style is perfect, no system is perfect, there is only hard work and practice.

 

[Geriatrix]

Do some research and read a bit more about the life and times of these people before making silly statements.

Ooooh, a nerve...

Seriously ? :wtf:
Yang Cheng Fu is still recognised today all over China as a master of martial arts and a very good fighter, not as some health expert.
It is also acknowledged by his writings and recorded notations that he viewed Taijiquan as a combat art first and formost, however he also recognised that it had a secondary benefit of being a very powerful way to promote and improve peoples general health and well being.

Simple fact , all teachers modify their styles in some way. Yang Lu Chan modified Chen Taiji to create Yang Taiji, Wu Quan Yu modified Yang Taiji to create Wu Taiji and so on etc etc.

I'm not disputing his ability, I know that he was brilliant. Iron bar in cotton.
I'm disputing the legacy he left behind. I could post you some clips and pages showing how taichi is viewed but I think we both know we'll be looking at a lot of photos of old people and soccermoms.
This is mostly in the Yang schools, from my observation.
Chen, Wu and Wuu took a little bit longer to go full health-club but they seem to be heading there as well. Which is sad. I like them.
Sun, though, can go dance with the Official Olympic form or whatever the bureaucrats in China call it nowadays.

This again

1) There are so many variables it is impossible to determine.

2) There are 11 branches of Wing Chun, each performs and practices the movements and techniques in their own unique way, so which lineage ?

3) Both arts have their merits both arts have their weaknesses.

There are no quick fixes in any Martial Art, No style is perfect, no system is perfect, there is only hard work and practice.

Don't dodge. You know it's true.
It's got nothing to do with the art it self, just the way it is being taught at the majority of places out there. I can think, of the top of my head, of about 4 schools in this country that actually knows taiqiquan is a martial art. My school, yours, this one in Kwazulu Natal(they love them some horse-stance, have an annual endurance comp and everything) I think, and this other one near me that seems a bit dodge.

I stand by my statement. The average taichi student wouldn't last three minutes in a ring with the average wing chun, long fist or even karate student. Why? Because it's not being taught as a martial art. Where can this be traced back to? Hmmm.

:edit
I just want to add, because it seems you somehow got the impression that I insulted your art, that I know taiqiquan is a good martial art. I know one guy that spars with it exclusively and he is frightening to watch. But taichi, in general, is taught like it is calisthenics.

 

[Nanfeishen]

Ooooh, a nerve...

As a "tradionalist" yes, Somewhat ,

I'm disputing the legacy he left behind. I could post you some clips and pages showing how taichi is viewed but I think we both know we'll be looking at a lot of photos of old people and soccermoms.
This is mostly in the Yang schools, from my observation.

Life , time and politics on China of the day caused this.
In 1952 Mao called for people to look to health and exercise to "improve" the nation.
Circa 1956 24 Step and 32 Step Sword forms were developed to promote this ideal. Both these forms were exclusively drawn from Yang Taijiquan movements rather than any of the other styles. These forms were promoted countrywide.
Politics being the name of the game in China to this day teachers were quick to pick up on this, because it had Com. Party endorsement, and this allowed many teachers to continue teaching their arts in a round-a-bout way without threats from the government.
Many teachers survived the period of the "Red Guards" with the purges, discrimination and killings that took place in those tubulent times by endorsing "Party Politics". Those that didnt were often "sent down" to the country and who knows how many just "disappeared".

Due to their ties to Yang Style, these 2 forms have been drawn into nearly every Yang Style school outside of China that exists today.
This has created the illusion and even the falsehood, often taught, that they are Yang style "short forms".
Hence the often mistaken impression they are part of the Yang system, and the "watering down" of Yang Taijiquan.

However they are a good introduction to get people to start on Yang Taijiquan, can be learnt in a rather short period of time and therefore allow people to have a complete form to practice rather early in a society that is increasingly looking for "quick fixes"
Testimony to this are the myriad of books and DVD's available on these 2 forms.

IMHO, any good school of Yang Taijiquan should be differentiating this fact.
Personally i teach what i term "public" forms i.e. 24 Step, 32 Step Form, 42 Step Combined Form and Taiji/Wu Shu Fan these i teach openly as health exercise, while emphasising just that, promoting health, seperate and apart from the martial art applications. These i reserve for public workshops and the Gym group where i teach. I do not promote them as anything more. Forms based on Martial movements.

At the Martial Arts school i add the original traditional 3 forms of Broadsword , 85 Step and 56 sword and focus on the practical values.

IMO, it is often the lack of knowledge of many teachers nowadays that has led to this bad impression of the true art of Taijiquan as well as the lack of ability of students to utilise it as a martial art.

Don't dodge. You know it's true.
It's got nothing to do with the art it self, just the way it is being taught at the majority of places out there. I can think, of the top of my head, of about 4 schools in this country that actually knows taiqiquan is a martial art. My school, yours, this one in Kwazulu Natal(they love them some horse-stance, have an annual endurance comp and everything) I think, and this other one near me that seems a bit dodge.

I stand by my statement. The average taichi student wouldn't last three minutes in a ring with the average wing chun, long fist or even karate student. Why? Because it's not being taught as a martial art.

Never said it wasnt true just that there are variables to be considered.

All things equal, Wing Chun for the first 5 years Yes, beyond that the variables increase.

Teachers ability, students ability, fighting spirit, training methods, practical knowledge, physical ability etc, etc.

Both arts are also extremely similar, both employ neutralising principles against attacks, both have "sticking hands", both emphasise partner work for sensitivity training, both work off the waist, both punch linear, both deflect circular, neither has high kicks, both employ "uprooting" principles, both employ joint locks and chin-na, Wing Chun employs more elboy techniques, Taiji more grappling and throws.
Both are "soft arts" , both are "internal" arts that place emphasis on "fajin" energy.

IMHO - Here is a rather good rendition of a Taiji form performed fast. Notice the reduction in movements.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHitMFFbTZs

Compare those same reduced movements to these:
Pao Fa Lien Wing Chun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8ErY0gfLgY
Pan Nam Wing Chun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWT-e2N8m28&feature=relmfu

Variables.

 

[DJ...]

Derren Brown performs the exact same trick, where he (sometimes violently) manipulates volunteers without touch whatsoever. He admits to using a multitude of techniques, none of which are spiritual, religious or unexplained in any way. The other problem with qi is that if it truly existed and impacts human beings the way it is purported to, then we would be able to measure it using current techniques. Considering it impacts us in a physical manner (supposedly) we wouldn't need new technologies to measure it.

We simply can't though...

 

[Nanfeishen]

Derren Brown performs the exact same trick, where he (sometimes violently) manipulates volunteers without touch whatsoever. He admits to using a multitude of techniques, none of which are spiritual, religious or unexplained in any way. The other problem with qi is that if it truly existed and impacts human beings the way it is purported to, then we would be able to measure it using current techniques. Considering it impacts us in a physical manner (supposedly) we wouldn't need new technologies to measure it.

We simply can't though...

This is likely to change with time, as mentioned in this article,
An Analytic Review of Studies on Measuring Effects of External Qi in China

Suggestions for Future Studies

Given the fact that qigong therapy is based on the TCM dialectic view of two interdependent spheres or worlds, while modern science and technology is based on our view of one physical world (the reductionism), it is problematic to explain qigong healing or EQ effect within the current scientific framework using modern technology. It is recommended that future studies to measure EQ effects should be conducted at the levels of biological detectors and life detectors since they offer more information, and hence, can demonstrate the EQ effects more comprehensively and accurately.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/36178441/Measuring-External-Qi