A ping-pong game between companies

genetic

genetic

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I helped start a small division within a company (Company A) in 2010. I did a lot of freelance work for the larger parent Company A for a year or so before hand.

I worked for them for around 3 years before Company B offered me a position. They didn't really offer a salary increase, but I joined Company B because the work was a lot more challenging, and I was branching into a more stressful environment which I thought would be good for my personal growth.

Company A has been trying to get me back for 3 years after joining Company B, and when things at Company B weren't being managed correctly after a huge merger and a lot of politics, I thought my time was done, and it's time to leave. I went back to Company A toward the end of last year.

My dilemma now comes in where Company B is desperately trying to get me back and is offering me a lot more money with more of a managerial position. I told them that I can't just leave, as that would be job hopping and is unfair to the company I just joined. Their response was that loyalty is for dogs. They have told me things have changed and said they made a mistake letting me go.

The thing is I could definitely do with a lot more money - anyone can. My friends tell my think about yourself. Loyalty in business is not going to cover expenses and I should chase the money or regret it later.

I somehow disagree, as I don't like job hopping. I don't know. Do I tell my current Company A that Company B is trying to get me back? My fear is that they might see that as me trying to play the two up against each other and see who bids the highest, which to me comes across as a d!ck move.

I don't want to be seen as a job hopper, but also don't want to shoot myself in the foot. :(

Should I tell Company A about Company B's offer, or just tell Company B to go jump and pretend nothing happened?
 
Hehe. Tough one. Too many variables to offer any practical advice.

Two general observations:

A sure way to unhappiness and failure is to work only or even mainly for money. It's very low on the list of what matters. Integrity and money can never be on the same scale when weighing options.

It's OK for junior staff to job hop for money, especially after giving the current employer a chance to meet the offer. Middle and senior staff, not so much.

Your instinct for integrity is sound. Nurture it.

Good luck! :)

And don't burn any bridges.
 
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Which company looks like it has the brightest future? Prospects for growth? That will answer your question... Do what's best for you!
 
As company B said, loyalty is for the dogs and they lost you when they lost you. Company A seems like the better company
 
Sounds like company B has internal issues. Have any of the reasons that caused you to leave company B truly been resolved? I've never seen a re-employment on a counter offer work out in the long run, especially when there is politics and poor management involved. You might score a period of good paychecks but wind up with your arse in the wind again at which point your credibility and loyalty will be severely damaged. Unless company A has bigger issues, stick with it, or start looking for company C.
 
Given that you left Company B because of internal issues at most say 6 months ago... what are the chances you think that they have changed so fundamentally in such a short time?
 
genetic said:
I helped start a small division within a company (Company A) in 2010. I did a lot of freelance work for the larger parent Company A for a year or so before hand.

I worked for them for around 3 years before Company B offered me a position. They didn't really offer a salary increase, but I joined Company B because the work was a lot more challenging, and I was branching into a more stressful environment which I thought would be good for my personal growth.

Company A has been trying to get me back for 3 years after joining Company B, and when things at Company B weren't being managed correctly after a huge merger and a lot of politics, I thought my time was done, and it's time to leave. I went back to Company A toward the end of last year.

My dilemma now comes in where Company B is desperately trying to get me back and is offering me a lot more money with more of a managerial position. I told them that I can't just leave, as that would be job hopping and is unfair to the company I just joined. Their response was that loyalty is for dogs. They have told me things have changed and said they made a mistake letting me go.

The thing is I could definitely do with a lot more money - anyone can. My friends tell my think about yourself. Loyalty in business is not going to cover expenses and I should chase the money or regret it later.

I somehow disagree, as I don't like job hopping. I don't know. Do I tell my current Company A that Company B is trying to get me back? My fear is that they might see that as me trying to play the two up against each other and see who bids the highest, which to me comes across as a d!ck move.

I don't want to be seen as a job hopper, but also don't want to shoot myself in the foot. :(

Should I tell Company A about Company B's offer, or just tell Company B to go jump and pretend nothing happened?
Click to expand...

This:

huge merger
Click to expand...

and this:

lot of politics
Click to expand...

Never go together well.

Sounds like you'd be unhappy. Even with the extra cash. You'd hate going to work everyday.
 
Too difficult to give advice, but this is what I would have done:

To me money is everything, fck what people say, the truth is money does buy happiness especially if your materialistic like me.

So if company B truly did some restructuring and the causes of the first issues are removed then I would move.

Biggest drawback , you'll most likely burn your bridge this time round so if company B fcks up again I doubt you'll be able to return to company A again.
 
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So. I cant help with your case OP but let me tell you a story about Loyalty.

in 2010 my company A took a massive risk in employing me. I took on an intermidiate role wiht no experience and no knowlage of the language I was working in.
to get around this I was not employed as a dev but as a data captured.
after 3 months I get a 33% increase and they make me junior dev. to get around not having any qualifications. still doing intermidiate's job.
septermber 2011 comes around I get a 33% increase.
septermber 2012 comes around I get a 20% increase.

June 2013 the Dev manager starts his own business. becomes a consultant. still works for the company. I take on 50% of his work
septermber 2013 comes around I get a 30% increase. because of taking on the additional responsibility. I also start a masssive project.
septermber 2014 comes around I get a 26% increase. because of the massive project that is saving the company about R200 000 per month. (I wish I was kidding about that number)

now you would think in my 5 years at that company I would have progressed to something past a Junior right? nope. but because of the massive increases every year I felt valued.


when I left there in June 2015 my CTC was R14 558. because I was still seen as a junior.

so what did I learn from that? you want loyalty? pay for it.

dont make the same mistake I did OP. if Comp A wants to keep you and you enjoy working there, go to the boss. tell them Comp B is offering you X and not taking it would be stupid. tell him you want to stay and if he offers you Z you will not move to comp B. make it clear you are not just trying to get an increase or get more money or make them go into a bidding war. make it clear you want to stay.
 
genetic said:
Should I tell Company A about Company B's offer, or just tell Company B to go jump and pretend nothing happened?
Click to expand...

Did company A improve your package when you rejoined after 3 years? Do you feel you're being fairly compensated right now?

I'd lean towards informing A of B's offer and giving them the option of countering if the answer to the second question in particular is no. But you have to be prepared to leave if they don't counter - staying after that kind of thing is not conducive to future improvements in compensation.
 
Difficult one and you would know better than anyone what to do, but my advice:

I've been in a similar position and moved back to a company for "better prospects", only to find that I ended up being well paid but miserable. That said, I did gain great experience going back. Is company B really better now? If not you are going to be looking for a company C.

If you do stay, I would actually tell Company A that you have been made a counter offer but that you are not considering moving. Apart from the obvious, it will make your current manager feel good about him/herself.
 
Baxteen said:
So. I cant help with your case OP but let me tell you a story about Loyalty.

in 2010 my company A took a massive risk in employing me. I took on an intermidiate role wiht no experience and no knowlage of the language I was working in.
to get around this I was not employed as a dev but as a data captured.
after 3 months I get a 33% increase and they make me junior dev. to get around not having any qualifications. still doing intermidiate's job.
septermber 2011 comes around I get a 33% increase.
septermber 2012 comes around I get a 20% increase.

June 2013 the Dev manager starts his own business. becomes a consultant. still works for the company. I take on 50% of his work
septermber 2013 comes around I get a 30% increase. because of taking on the additional responsibility. I also start a masssive project.
septermber 2014 comes around I get a 26% increase. because of the massive project that is saving the company about R200 000 per month. (I wish I was kidding about that number)

now you would think in my 5 years at that company I would have progressed to something past a Junior right? nope. but because of the massive increases every year I felt valued.


when I left there in June 2015 my CTC was R14 558. because I was still seen as a junior.

so what did I learn from that? you want loyalty? pay for it.

dont make the same mistake I did OP. if Comp A wants to keep you and you enjoy working there, go to the boss. tell them Comp B is offering you X and not taking it would be stupid. tell him you want to stay and if he offers you Z you will not move to comp B. make it clear you are not just trying to get an increase or get more money or make them go into a bidding war. make it clear you want to stay.
Click to expand...

What was your mistake, Baxteen? Those look like really good increases...are you saying the work you were doing for them was worth alot more than the pay they were offering you?

Increases like that are only possible (where I work) if you employ someone for a CTC so far below the payscale of the position, that you're allowed the leeway to keep bumping pay to get them in line with others doing the same work. Ordinarily, we're restricted to offering CPI+a couple percent for good to excellent performance and adhoc increases outside the annual cycle are like hen's teeth.
 
Neoprod said:
What was your mistake, Baxteen? Those look like really good increases...are you saying the work you were doing for them was worth alot more than the pay they were offering you?

Increases like that are only possible (where I work) if you employ someone for a CTC so far below the payscale of the position, that you're allowed the leeway to keep bumping pay to get them in line with others doing the same work. Ordinarily, we're restricted to offering CPI+a couple percent for good to excellent performance and adhoc increases outside the annual cycle are like hen's teeth.
Click to expand...
My mistake was Thinking those increases would add up and eventually I would catch up. But as a web dev with 5 years experience, earning less than R15k when you get your long service award feels really awkward. My loyalty to the company set back my career development. Because if you walk in to an interview having worked at the same company for 5 years, and they see your pay slip being R 5k below what they offer a junior, and then seeing that you are still a junior. They think there is something wrong with you as the dev.

Now a year later I have a clear career path. I'm getting paid better and more importantly I am no longer a junior.

My story was there to show loyalty is not what it's cracked up to be

Also my incenses were all at the year end review. Even the first increase came at financial year end for that company
 
Neoprod said:
I'd lean towards informing A of B's offer and giving them the option of countering if the answer to the second question in particular is no. But you have to be prepared to leave if they don't counter - staying after that kind of thing is not conducive to future improvements in compensation.
Click to expand...

That's quite a high risk strategy. If A doesn't counter the bridge is burned and OP would have no choice. Companies generally hate that kind of horse trading, btw.

It would be more strategic to make company A aware, diplomatically, that earnings we're higher at B WITHOUT mentioning B's offer. That way, they know you have a higher expectation, and might lose you, but it's not an ultimatum situation.
 
garp said:
That's quite a high risk strategy. If A doesn't counter the bridge is burned and OP would have no choice. Companies generally hate that kind of horse trading, btw.

It would be more strategic to make company A aware, diplomatically, that earnings we're higher at B WITHOUT mentioning B's offer. That way, they know you have a higher expectation, and might lose you, but it's not an ultimatum situation.
Click to expand...

Yes, I get that. This has worked for me in the past in a not dissimilar position to OP's. I sourced an offer from another company and then made my current employer match it (I wasn't particularly looking to move so wasn't concerned about what the second company thought).

It looks like OP is in the position where his service is of sufficient value to play the same \ similar card. Assuming his CTC at B was known to A when he moved back (I assume this was the case as the CTC at an existing employer is like the starting point for negotiation), I'm not sure how feasible it is to say I was earning more at B a few months after you started working at A.
 
Baxteen said:
My mistake was Thinking those increases would add up and eventually I would catch up. But as a web dev with 5 years experience, earning less than R15k when you get your long service award feels really awkward. My loyalty to the company set back my career development. Because if you walk in to an interview having worked at the same company for 5 years, and they see your pay slip being R 5k below what they offer a junior, and then seeing that you are still a junior. They think there is something wrong with you as the dev.

Now a year later I have a clear career path. I'm getting paid better and more importantly I am no longer a junior.

My story was there to show loyalty is not what it's cracked up to be

Also my incenses were all at the year end review. Even the first increase came at financial year end for that company
Click to expand...

Cool - got it. I have to say, as someone who previously managed people at a corporate (I no longer do, praise Jeebus), it is very hard to get compensation where you want it for the individual people under your management. Some people you inherit at a certain cost and you can see the company is not getting it's money's worth - others genuinely contribute and grow and you're handicapped by the policies in place.

The starting point for you might have been too low but there looks to have been a genuine effort to get you to where you should have been. I don't think I could have done any better when I managed even if your reviews came up uniformly excellent every review period.

That's neither here nor there - congrats on finding a more rewarding environment.
 
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Neoprod said:
What was your mistake, Baxteen? Those look like really good increases...are you saying the work you were doing for them was worth alot more than the pay they were offering you?

Increases like that are only possible (where I work) if you employ someone for a CTC so far below the payscale of the position, that you're allowed the leeway to keep bumping pay to get them in line with others doing the same work. Ordinarily, we're restricted to offering CPI+a couple percent for good to excellent performance and adhoc increases outside the annual cycle are like hen's teeth.
Click to expand...

It sounds as though the mistake is starting off at R~4000/m, at a company that thinks 33% is a lot even if it's just R1000/m. Some companies just can't bring themselves to offer a big percentage increase even when deserved. :(
 
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