ADSL without a Voice line

[lupedelupe]

Please help my little brain understand this ...

Telkom insists I rent two things:

• Telephone/voice line
• ADSL line

Now as far as I can understand it uses by and large the same line, no? I have little need for the voice facility – far too little to justify the monthly cost. ADSL however, I do need. Yet they apparently will not let me have the one without the other.

Why? :wtf:

 

[NeonNinja]

They're Telkom.

 

[Arthur]

ADSL is a technology that puts data down a twisted pair telephone line. You need that line in order to get ADSL. Making voice calls is optional. But getting a PSTN number is not - it's how the technology works, not a Telkom plot. Asking for ADSL without a phone service (ie phone number) is much like asking for a cellular data connection without a cell number. You can't.

 

[MickeyD]

You can... a.k.a. naked ADSL.

But it will cost you more.

 

[lupedelupe]

Does the voice connection and the ADSL connection run through the same (single) twisted pair telephone line?

 

[$m@Rt@$$]

Does the voice connection and the ADSL connection run through the same (single) twisted pair telephone line?

Yes. The same line but your ADSL runs at a different frequency than what the voice part is.

 

[Saajid]

ADSL is a technology that puts data down a twisted pair telephone line. You need that line in order to get ADSL. Making voice calls is optional. But getting a PSTN number is not - it's how the technology works, not a Telkom plot. Asking for ADSL without a phone service (ie phone number) is much like asking for a cellular data connection without a cell number. You can't.

Nonsense. You can get an ADSL line without PSTN voice services in many other countries, including ones in Africa, but especially in the developed world. It's called Naked ADSL. And it has nothing to do with the actual telephone number, which is technically only required for the routing of calls between the various Telkom exchanges, and between regions. It just so happens that the telephone number also became the identifying ID for accounts, billing, and many other systems, and so is deeply ingrained within Telkom's systems. But that also isn't the reason why we can't get Naked ADSL. The reason is monetary. Telkom wants to suck the life blood out of as many customers as they can, for as long as they can, while hiding behind an excuse they call the "access line deficit", which basically claims that they make a loss on every telephone line they roll out, and have to make it up through value added services like telephony and ADSL. Which is why they won't sell you ADSL on its own.

 

[lupedelupe]

Nonsense. You can get an ADSL line without PSTN voice services in many other countries, including ones in Africa, but especially in the developed world. It's called Naked ADSL. And it has nothing to do with the actual telephone number, which is technically only required for the routing of calls between the various Telkom exchanges, and between regions. It just so happens that the telephone number also became the identifying ID for accounts, billing, and many other systems, and so is deeply ingrained within Telkom's systems. But that also isn't the reason why we can't get Naked ADSL. The reason is monetary. Telkom wants to suck the life blood out of as many customers as they can, for as long as they can, while hiding behind an excuse they call the "access line deficit", which basically claims that they make a loss on every telephone line they roll out, and have to make it up through value added services like telephony and ADSL. Which is why they won't sell you ADSL on its own.

Thanks for that. As I thought.

I also understand that it is technically illegal to charge twice for the same line (... but they mask the charge as two services).

 

[Chevron]

Please help my little brain understand this ...

Telkom insists I rent two things:

• Telephone/voice line
• ADSL line

Now as far as I can understand it uses by and large the same line, no? I have little need for the voice facility – far too little to justify the monthly cost. ADSL however, I do need. Yet they apparently will not let me have the one without the other.

Why? :wtf:

The voice line fee pays for the upkeep of the copper itself and the adsl fee pays for the backhaul to the exchange.

 

[MickeyD]

Thanks for that. As I thought.

I also understand that it is technically illegal to charge twice for the same line (... but they mask the charge as two services).

You are not being charged twice for the same line.

POTS rental is from the jack to the splitter in the exchange (DSLAM or Switch).
ADSL rental is from the DSLAM to the BRAS.

 

[Chevron]

You are not being charged twice for the same line.

POTS rental is from the jack to the splitter in the exchange (DSLAM or Switch).
ADSL rental is from the DSLAM to the BRAS.

Nice image.

 

[Arthur]

Nonsense. You can get an ADSL line without PSTN voice services in many other countries, including ones in Africa, but especially in the developed world. It's called Naked ADSL. And it has nothing to do with the actual telephone number, which is technically only required for the routing of calls between the various Telkom exchanges, and between regions. It just so happens that the telephone number also became the identifying ID for accounts, billing, and many other systems, and so is deeply ingrained within Telkom's systems. But that also isn't the reason why we can't get Naked ADSL. The reason is monetary. Telkom wants to suck the life blood out of as many customers as they can, for as long as they can, while hiding behind an excuse they call the "access line deficit", which basically claims that they make a loss on every telephone line they roll out, and have to make it up through value added services like telephony and ADSL. Which is why they won't sell you ADSL on its own.

What you or they call Naked ADSL is just a change in billing line and description. Nett costs remain, and will be recovered whatever you call the service.

Whichever you do it, the nett cost to the subscriber is the same. What would you prefer: "Naked ADSL" with the line charge moved under the heading "DSL", or two billing line items, with one saying "Access charge" and the other saying "DSL connection"?

Personally, I like the included option of being able to use voice if I want to.

But if you think that "naked ADSL" would cost less than the current "clothed ADSL", you're not being real.

 

[Arthur]

Very, very simply, there are four main cost elements in a "line":

1. The DSL modem that connects your PC/LAN to the exchange at the CO (central office), ie exchange. This cost is borne by the subscriber. If your ISP gives you a "free" modem, you're still paying for it, though the cost isn't itemized.

2. The twisted pair copper ("last mile") from the exchange to your premises. This has to be installed and maintained.

3. Connecting the aggregated subscriber data streams to the ISP - done through a Digital Subscriber Line Access Multiplexer (DSLAM).

4. At the ISP, the aggregated data streams are routed to a Broadband Remote Access Server (B-RAS), which is used to validate things like account and access credentials, after which the data are routed into the internet.

There will always be a charge for the copper line to your premises. If there isn't, who pays when it gets damaged or stolen? The CO will always charge to suck off and aggregate the various DSL data streams and route and carry them to the ISP's B-RAS.

There will always be a charge for connecting to the DSLAM (manufacturers do not provide them free of charge, therefore Telkom cannot either).

The current Telkom network architecture and accounting system links you the subscriber to the DSLAM by means of a telephone account number.

Even if we get naked DSL in SA, you'll still pay Telkom for the wire between your premises and for the DSLAM. And you'll separately pay your ISP for their portion. The only change it would make is an admin one - instead of getting a telephone number and voice service bundled in by Telkom you'd get a different account number and a line that isn't connected to the voice network. This might save R1 a month, though Telkom would have to spend (and recover from you) the money needed to make the changes to their accounting and billing system.

Hope that clarifies it a little.

 

[lupedelupe]

Very, very simply, there are four main cost elements in a "line":

1. The DSL modem that connects your PC/LAN to the exchange at the CO (central office), ie exchange. This cost is borne by the subscriber. If your ISP gives you a "free" modem, you're still paying for it, though the cost isn't itemized.

2. The twisted pair copper ("last mile") from the exchange to your premises. This has to be installed and maintained.

3. Connecting the aggregated subscriber data streams to the ISP - done through a Digital Subscriber Line Access Multiplexer (DSLAM).

4. At the ISP, the aggregated data streams are routed to a Broadband Remote Access Server (B-RAS), which is used to validate things like account and access credentials, after which the data are routed into the internet.

There will always be a charge for the copper line to your premises. If there isn't, who pays when it gets damaged or stolen? The CO will always charge to suck off and aggregate the various DSL data streams and route and carry them to the ISP's B-RAS.

There will always be a charge for connecting to the DSLAM (manufacturers do not provide them free of charge, therefore Telkom cannot either).

The current Telkom network architecture and accounting system links you the subscriber to the DSLAM by means of a telephone account number.

Even if we get naked DSL in SA, you'll still pay Telkom for the wire between your premises and for the DSLAM. And you'll separately pay your ISP for their portion. The only change it would make is an admin one - instead of getting a telephone number and voice service bundled in by Telkom you'd get a different account number and a line that isn't connected to the voice network. This might save R1 a month, though Telkom would have to spend (and recover from you) the money needed to make the changes to their accounting and billing system.

Hope that clarifies it a little.

Thank you, it does. However I find it a little excessive to pay R538/month just to have the service. This is sans ISP fees or actual usage in way, shape or form.

 

[Arthur]

R538 per month?

That is excessive. Who is charging you that? For what?

 

[AntiGanda]

You are not being charged twice for the same line.

POTS rental is from the jack to the splitter in the exchange (DSLAM or Switch).
ADSL rental is from the DSLAM to the BRAS.

I would be interested to know how Telkom makes a loss with every phone line rental. Show us the actual figures please (latest, not 2011).

 

[MickeyD]

I would be interested to know how Telkom makes a loss with every phone line rental. Show us the actual figures please (latest, not 2011).

That's what was presented at the LLU hearings held by ICASA... you are welcome to try and get any type of numbers out of Telkom.

 

[lupedelupe]

R538 per month?

That is excessive. Who is charging you that? For what?

Telkom. For a telephone line and a 4 meg ADSL connection (connection, not service). Business account.

 

[MickeyD]

Telkom. For a telephone line and a 4 meg ADSL connection (connection, not service). Business account.

The important bit...

 

[saemwave]

PSTN -> VOIP DID termination

Well... we get PSTN like it or not, but received calls in SA are charged to the caller, not the recipient. This opens up an interesting micro business opportunity to provide VOIP DID service!! Lets say a company in foreignstein wants to be able to receive calls from South Africa. I terminate the unwanted PSTN pair in an ATA with FXS device (not expensive) and they can take calls all day at virtually no cost to me.

Nasty me. Or you, if you choose to do it... ha ha.

Call me the loophole hunter.