Affirmative Action here forever

[Skeptik]

The Freedom Charter drawn up by the people in Kliptown in 1955, under the banner of the ANC, states that South Africa belongs to all who live in it, black and white, and that no government can justly claim authority unless it is based on the will of all the people. This has been the guiding principle of the ANC, since it took control of the country in 1994.

Firstly, the Freedom Charter is not law. It never has been and indeed WILL NEVER BE in our democracy. This country operates via a constitution and by parliament, not by the ANC.

If the country belongs to all who live in it, why do the ANC treat young white people as they they don't belong in it?

The masses of people in this country would have been justified in seizing white owned farms, taking over white businesses and occupying white houses. The Government would have not only been justified, but supported in trying members of Government, it's officials, and members of Police and the Army for human rights abuses.

The world would have applauded as PW Botha, Adriaan Vlok, and Pik Botha were led off to jail. The world would have justified the seizing of assets and money of large corporations to government coffers.

Even violence against whites could easily have been discarded as our people venting their frustrations against the oppressors of the past.

But this is not what happened, as early as 1990, the ANC and the Government signed the Pretoria Minute, effectively ending the Armed Struggle

They didn't sieze white farms and businesses because they knew they COULD NOT. At the time of the negotiated settlement, the ANC was in poor shape. Their bases had been moved so far North that their operations were ineffective. We could argue that they had to negotiate.

The world would not have been impressed at overt military action anyway. They would probably have sent their own soldiers in to keep the peace.

In 1993, Chris Hani, was killed, and it was feared that violence could erupt at any moment, the masses of people would have been justified for venting their anger at the white supremecists who cold bloodedly killed a hero of the people. But the ANC, through Nelson Mandela, called for and achieved calm

Nobody knows who sponsored Chris Hani's death. In fact, some speculate that it was not the right-wing, but a faction within the struggle itself. This probably explains why no full enquiry has been made.

The course of the New South Africa, was firmly set by the launch of the TRC in 1995, headed by Archbishop Desmond Tutu. The new Government provided that those who had committed attrocities during Apartheid would receive amnesty if they made a full disclosure as to the attrocities and proved that it was politically motivated. This amnesty in many cases also included forgiveness from the victims or their families, and while many in our country saw the TRC as a political witch-hunt, it brought South Africa through the transition period with relative political stability. The humanist approach of Mandela and Tutu brought compassion to a brutalised country. Despite the horrors revealed by the TRC, glimmers of humanity shone through and provided hope for the future.

This has been the way Government has dealt with the issue of reconcilliation and the extremely mature way the oppression of the past has been dealt with.

The TRC dealt mainly with crimes committed by the apartheid State. Many struggle figures were exonerated or just not called. In fact Thabo Mbeki was never prosecuted for his part.

While, politically, democracy had been attained, the dream of a South Africa that belonged to all who live in it had only been partially realised. Non-whites had been marginalised for over forty years, and had not been part of the mainstream economy. Many were unemployed and homeless, and this was a situation that had to rectified, back in 1990, this was one of the first things Mandela said on his release from Prison

40 Years, and not 400 years then??

State of the Nation Address - 2007
The intentions of AA remains to achieve a level playing field, it is not a punishment, and indeed no white people have been punished by the implementation of AA, as the unemployment figures show. BEE has had little impact on the control of the wealth of the country.

So a young person who was not old enough to even remember apartheid and who now cannot follow the profession of his dreams is not being punished then? Bull!

 

[McSack]

Apologies upfront... just had to post this here...
(see the frenchie tourist attack thread)

Condition black is sometimes blah blah blah. It's also sometimes used to describe the panicked reactions of someone who has been jolted out of condition white without passing through any of the others.

 

[McSack]

BEE has had little impact on the control of the wealth of the country.

AHAHAAHHAHAAAHAHAHAHAAAH!!!!

tell that to anyone who wants to get involved in a multi-million rand project

 

[kilo39]

For purposes of accuracy, it would be prudent to include the reasons it was denied
-
At least the members of the ANC, tried to take responsibility for their part in making policy, while the leaders of the Apartheid Government refused to come clean

Ja, no one came forward from the apartheid government: please.

Truth report accuses leading figures
Thursday, October 29, 1998
The long-awaited report by South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Commission into abuses under apartheid has accused leading figures from across the political spectrum of human rights violations. Mr Botha, who was prime minister from 1979 to 1984, and president until 1989, was fined earlier this year after refusing to testify before the commission. The report holds him accountable for killings during his time in office, a period when anti-apartheid resistance was met with increasingly brutal suppression.

Mr Buthelezi is held responsible for killings carried out by members of his Inkatha Freedom Party. The Zulu nationalist grouping was revealed in 1992 to have collaborated in secret police activity, including mass killings, in the KwaZulu-Natal region.

Ms Madikizela-Mandela, former wife of the president, is judged by the report to have been implicated in murders, and was said to have allowed her home to be used as a place for assault and mutilation. She has already been convicted of the kidnapping of young activist Stompie Sepei in the late 1980s. Her personal bodyguards have been linked to killings and abductions.

 

[xtermin8or]

Kilo - I am not sure what point you are trying to make with this post

 

[neio]

It's being tried, a small backward town, called Orania

Except for the fact that the people in Orania looks inward for income generation, they arent globally focused.

 

[Skeptik]

Kilo - I am not sure what point you are trying to make with this post

You seem to gloss over the replies a lot. I guess you can't keep up with all the people proving u wrong and shooting you down?

 

[xtermin8or]

Firstly, the Freedom Charter is not law. It never has been and indeed WILL NEVER BE in our democracy. This country operates via a constitution and by parliament, not by the ANC.

The preamble to the constitution contains those self-same words, that were quoted, in any event it was not argued that it was law, but that it is the attitude of the ANC

If the country belongs to all who live in it, why do the ANC treat young white people as they they don't belong in it?

They have never done that, AA, gives preference suitably qualified members of designated groups, a common perception is that AA means that no white person can get work in this country, now that is absolute hogwash, if the quota system is anything to go by, then there is clearly still place for whites as only a certain percentage of blacks need to be employed

They didn't sieze white farms and businesses because they knew they COULD NOT. At the time of the negotiated settlement, the ANC was in poor shape. Their bases had been moved so far North that their operations were ineffective. We could argue that they had to negotiate.

Ok, what have you been smoking, I want some, if this were the case, why did the NP negotiate themselves out of power. MK was at the height of it's power, the NP Government was bankrupt and could not afford a long protracted war with the ANC, Mandela saw the opportunity, and out of his jail cell called for negotiations.

The world would not have been impressed at overt military action anyway. They would probably have sent their own soldiers in to keep the peace.

But who would they have backed - I will leave that up to speculation - BTW - if there is a war you don't send in peacekeepers you send it peacemakers

Nobody knows who sponsored Chris Hani's death. In fact, some speculate that it was not the right-wing, but a faction within the struggle itself. This probably explains why no full enquiry has been made.

Once again you miss the point, the point was that violence could have erupted at any time, if you were near Soweto at the time, you could literally feel the tension. The point was that the ANC very maturely called on people to be calm

The TRC dealt mainly with crimes committed by the apartheid State. Many struggle figures were exonerated or just not called. In fact Thabo Mbeki was never prosecuted for his part.

answered by Kilo's posts - as for Thabo Mbeki - AFAIK - he spent time in Lusaka - as OR Tambo's speechwriter and aide, and England where he studied economics - so as there may have been no actual incident that he took part in he could not apply for amnesty - he did ask the commission to try to find his son though.

So a young person who was not old enough to even remember apartheid and who now cannot follow the profession of his dreams is not being punished then? Bull!

answered above - there is nothing stopping him from following the profession of his/her dreams

 

[kilo39]

Kilo - I am not sure what point you are trying to make with this post

Actually exterm I'm not trying to make any point. I'm simply saying your racist rhetoric (threats) about what could have happened and who was guilty and by how much are a bunch of cr#p and this is what we are dealing with daily.

Personally I am sick of the endless political theorizing and the endless politicising of every single tiny issue (at heart usually your failure to deliver, or your racist, corrupt policies.) I cannot see how swapping one set of racist legislation for another is any different. You lot are as bad as them.

And who do we have to thank for this endless political diatribe, rant. YOU for introducing laws we fought so hard to eliminate.

But here they are back again. Fully justified as usual.

Sickening. Sick of it. Sick of having to think it or deal with it. Just fix it and STFU.

 

[xtermin8or]

Actually exterm I'm not trying to make any point. I'm simply saying your racist rhetoric (threats) about what could have happened and who was guilty and by how much are a bunch of cr#p and this is what we are dealing with daily.

Personally I am sick of the endless political theorizing and the endless politicising of every single tiny issue (at heart usually your failure to deliver, or your racist, corrupt policies.) I cannot see how swapping one set of racist legislation for another is any different. You lot are as bad as them.

And who do we have to thank for this endless political diatribe, rant. YOU for introducing laws we fought so hard to eliminate.

But here they are back again. Fully justified as usual.

Sickening. Sick of it. Sick of having to think it or deal with it. Just fix it and STFU.

I still fail to see how AA is a racist policy, when it clearly gives everyone a fair chance at gaining employment, simple no.

I never apportioned blame, or threatened anyone, i simply put it to you how things could have gone down in this country, and how the ANC created conditions that created a peaceful transition, to show people that their aim is to create a equitable society

 

[xtermin8or]

You seem to gloss over the replies a lot. I guess you can't keep up with all the people proving u wrong and shooting you down?

As yet, I have not been proven wrong, or shot down, you have received a reply, I await your response

 

[xtermin8or]

Except for the fact that the people in Orania looks inward for income generation, they arent globally focused.

wonder who they will do business with, probably only the Dutch, who might understand a little of what they are saying

 

[Skeptik]

@extermin8tor

Both sides negotiated because at that time it was in BOTH their interests. You talk as if the ANC and their allies could have taken power and decided not to. That is just nonsense.

I didn't say white people couldn't get jobs. I say they cannot get the jobs and positions they would like and should be able to get, were there no new AApartheid. Certain professions are closed simply because of their colour. U saying that's OK?

Why did Mbeki apply and get refused amnesty if there was nothing to apply for??

 

[blonde one]

IMO AA has become like reverse breaststroke. It reminds me of the words to a song by Queen 'I want it all, and I want it now....'

 

[JK8]

@extermin8tor

Both sides negotiated because at that time it was in BOTH their interests. You talk as if the ANC and their allies could have taken power and decided not to. That is just nonsense.

I didn't say white people couldn't get jobs. I say they cannot get the jobs and positions they would like and should be able to get, were there no new AApartheid. Certain professions are closed simply because of their colour. U saying that's OK?

Why did Mbeki apply and get refused amnesty if there was nothing to apply for??

Its directed to X but id also like to reply.

We all would like to get the jobs we "like" and think we should get!
As for professions that are closed, I think its ok for now, certain careers like engineering need to be accessed by non whites.

 

[JK8]

IMO AA has become like reverse breaststroke. It reminds me of the words to a song by Queen 'I want it all, and I want it now....'

Go feed your dog, you just making up things and trying to over over exaggerate things.

 

[xtermin8or]

@extermin8tor

Both sides negotiated because at that time it was in BOTH their interests. You talk as if the ANC and their allies could have taken power and decided not to. That is just nonsense.

I didn't say white people couldn't get jobs. I say they cannot get the jobs and positions they would like and should be able to get, were there no new AApartheid. Certain professions are closed simply because of their colour. U saying that's OK?

Why did Mbeki apply and get refused amnesty if there was nothing to apply for??

Okay, both sides negotiated, but the people on the streets could have reacted violently, in fact, we received many threats that they ( ANC members ) are comming to take our house, but the leadership of the ANC stepped in and stopped it, that is what my point was.

Now, we get to the heart of the problem, should there still be job reservation for whites, so they get the jobs they want, I put it to you, that it is a minority of people who are actually in jobs they dreamt of. But AA does not stop white people from getting those jobs, that is a fallacy, come on, you are an educated person, look around you, there is and always will be place for white people in this country, do yourself a favour and look at the legislation and think about it carefully, and you will see that it is actually a win-win situation for everyone

Mbeki applied as part of a group seeking blanket amnesty, as they were collabaratively taking responsibility for actions that may have taken part due to their policy decisions - like at a meeting they might have said, we must intensify the armed struggle, the Commandants then took decisions as to the exact details of the operation, so they applied to take responsibility for those decisions, but as such they could not list any specifics, and as no human rights violation had taken place, no amnesty could be granted

 

[McSack]

As for professions that are closed, I think its ok for now, certain careers like engineering need to be accessed by non whites.

this is why we have the current shortage of engineers in SA. a similar situation exist with programmers, maths teachers, plumbers, electricians, doctors, nurses... should I go on?

But so what?... we can always get these skills imported at discounted cost from China and India.

Bit of a short sighted policy if you ask me

 

[xtermin8or]

this is why we have the current shortage of engineers in SA. a similar situation exist with programmers, maths teachers, plumbers, electricians, doctors, nurses... should I go on?

But so what?... we can always get these skills imported at discounted cost from China and India.

Bit of a short sighted policy if you ask me

That is because there is a shortage of these people in the country, show me where there are people who have these skills sitting without a job

 

[Abe]

They have never done that, AA, gives preference suitably qualified members of designated groups, a common perception is that AA means that no white person can get work in this country, now that is absolute hogwash, if the quota system is anything to go by, then there is clearly still place for whites as only a certain percentage of blacks need to be employed

The company I last worked for had a policy of no people being hired who are not of colour. Full stop. In addition to this, when I was looking for a job, I could not get one because of my colour. I went for two interviews and on both occasions, the positions were awarded to AA candidates. This was despite the fact that only these 2, out of the 15 odd positions that I looked at in that field, were the only non AA positions. Have a look at any employment company and just see how many AA positions there are compared to non-AA.

AA positions outnumber non-AA positions 10 to 1 and the so called "1" also gives preference to AA candidates.

Oh, and before you start saying that the problem is with my capabilities, I have secured a job when going for an interview on 4 occasions out of 6 before this last round of interviews.

What you are neglecting is the fact that there are a finite number of jobs. Hostorically most of these jobs were awarded to white people, this country is not creating jobs to the tune of a million per year. The percentages that companies need to have are quite high which puts pressure on them to replace white staff with black staff. That means that the number of white people employed will have to decrease through AA. Obviously there will still be some jobs for white males, but they are becoming more and more difficult to find. Can you imagine how many whites would not have jobs had 1 million of them not left South Africa.