Affirmative inaction

[sox63]

Tell me where there better qualified people in 1940s to do the job than the white Afrikaner population? Possibly some English people, they were also employed, if I have my facts right the first Afrikaans mining manager were employed in 1990s about.
If people we employed based on merit and not on the bases of being white, I believe most whites would have been appointed in those positions anyway. Currently we have people with more merit available, being pushed aside for people with more pigment. So your argument does not hold water.
About the railways, my grandfather worked on the railways his whole life, he had to inspect the trains, which entailed crouching down on his knees, which today is so worn out he cannot walk. He worked hard, if he did not his employment based on being Afrikaans would have been terminated, as being Afrikaans meant working very hard.
Furthermore, those positions you mentioned, did not require more than matric (if you can pass matric you can possibly handle the responsibility of inspecting a train) but today we see people with no education in very high ranking government posts. How is that logical?

In summary, the discrimination we see today, is worse in terms of how unfair it is.

Your argument is a non-starter, there were no "other" qualified canidates due to the employment policies of the day, and never mind the intentional sub-quality education forced upon Blacks, Coloureds and Indians. And becuase it has hardly been 17 years since the Nats started dismantling Apartheid legislature, we find ourselves in the situation we are in now, there are so "few" PDI canidates out there that they can double their salary in the space of 2 years simply by moving from one company to the next.

On a personal note, what this woman talks about happens daily, it is just that with me I INCLUDE myself in any training or whatever meetings I have been left out of but my white counterparts are included. But come performance review time we are all the same, and what I have to say about performance is that no matter what color you are if the numbers are not there at the end of the financial year, you are in k@k.

 

[lsuacner]

Your argument is a non-starter, there were no "other" qualified canidates due to the employment policies of the day, and never mind the intentional sub-quality education forced upon Blacks, Coloureds and Indians. And becuase it has hardly been 17 years since the Nats started dismantling Apartheid legislature, we find ourselves in the situation we are in now, there are so "few" PDI canidates out there that they can double their salary in the space of 2 years simply by moving from one company to the next.

On a personal note, what this woman talks about happens daily, it is just that with me I INCLUDE myself in any training or whatever meetings I have been left out of but my white counterparts are included. But come performance review time we are all the same, and what I have to say about performance is that no matter what color you are if the numbers are not there at the end of the financial year, you are in k@k.

The quality of education under the NP for black people were better than what the ANC provide today, the current HDI is proof of that.
There were no other qualified candidates because white people had better educations in 1940s. Not due to Apartheid, just a fact of life that while white people already valued education then, black people did not.

I think some people made that point on news24, if you wish to be included, include yourself and take responsibility in the position you hold. Similarly, my dad had a hard time finding a job, when he did he made sure he was indispensable, he took so much responsibility that after his 6 month contract was over they could not do without him and took him on full-time. Not only black people have to do it, white people have to do it also.

 

[Sneeky]

Once you've jumped through all the hoops (like submitting your 1984 student number, agreeing to credit checks and providing an affidavit that you really are who you say you are), the real abuse of the low-paid but well-titled job begins.

We fired an AA candidate last year. Was put through varsity by the company, never paid a cent for the BSc. After spending time at the factory learning the ropes and being mentored this person was later drafted/promoted into the technical service function as the individual showed great potential. Prerequisite being the knowledge and a valid drivers license which the person said they had.
Good job for someone that young age at over R250K pa plus, very generous incentive bonus scheme, vehicle allowance, etc etc. All the bells and whistles.

Before long customers started phoning in asking where this person was. Long story very short, car was repossessed by the finance company due to false drivers license.
The person just left and went to his village in the EC because of 'stress'.
When eventually tracked down through family connections, confronted and afforded the opportunity to come clean and be assisted the individual continued to lie about the validity of the document, despite the proof presented.
Appointments were made on this persons behalf to get a valid license which they failed to keep.

Who loses most, the company or the individual.

The strangest thing about the whole incident is that this individual, after being fired, walked back to their old department the same day (the one before promotion to tech sales) to ask for their old job back , for someone who holds a BSc, not very bright.

 

[sox63]

The quality of education under the NP for black people were better than what the ANC provide today, the current HDI is proof of that.

LOL! Whoever fed you that, has you brainwashed. Had the HDI been solely about literacy and education I would agree with you, however it also includes life expectancy and quality of life. And in a country that is dealing with an AIDS epidemic second to none that has led to a drastic drop in life expectancy. And quality of life dropping ACROSS the scale, and not just for poor people, to live a life that was middle class back in the day, would require you today to earn a relatively high salary.

So please the HDI thing does not even come close to try and justify your statement on present day quality of education compared to Bantu education.

Bantu Education Act of 1953 was a South African law which codified several aspects of the apartheid system. Its major provision was enforced separation of races in all educational institutions. Even universities were made 'tribal', and many mission schools had to close. No science or mathematics was taught under Bantu education, emphasis was placed on agriculture as the Apartheid government wanted black people to be uneducated farmers, not scientists or mathematicians.

 

[Jozi101]

Yes today it's Bruda and Sista

No. In case you haven't checked, Afrikaners are still running the show and they'll do whatever it takes to keep it that way. The only reason why my boss is an engineeering manager today, is because he's a white afrkaner. Never mind that he's dumb as a mule. Hates being corrected, especially by your's truely. I happen to think he's in way over his head, as he's
bullsh!tted his way through life.

Needles to say, i won't paint all white people with the same brush. Just as much as you shouldn't. One story (Doubtr if it's true) of a black guy who's told a lie about his licence doesn't mean much in the bigger picture.

 

[alloytoo]

Seems to me some folk have selective memories or no idea of history. When the NATS came to power in the late 40's, every afrikaans speaking cousin and auntie got a job on the railways, post office and yeah, telkom and every government department you can think of. Even the awarding of tenders and contracts was based on ones language and known political affiliations.

That was affirmative action highly effectively implemented and probably the root cause of the mind set problems that those institutions now face. Every moron and half wit was given, yes given, a job as a railways checker or clerk in some government department. So what's changed? Just the skin color of the beneficiaries. And that makes it unacceptable now?

These days those people are 'working' as car guards and parking lot attendants in Meyerton and Verneeging and probably many other parts of the country . Seems to me some of the folk here posting predictable kneejerk anti-govenment responses to issues like these fear they will be joining their ranks soon Fat lot of good all the negative and destructive whining and whinging is going to do for you

Yet my English speaking great grandfather lost his job as a station master......

 

[alloytoo]

Bantu Education Act of 1953 was a South African law which codified several aspects of the apartheid system. Its major provision was enforced separation of races in all educational institutions. Even universities were made 'tribal', and many mission schools had to close. No science or mathematics was taught under Bantu education, emphasis was placed on agriculture as the Apartheid government wanted black people to be uneducated farmers, not scientists or mathematicians.

Change that from "No science and mathematics" to little.

Under Apartheid we had Bantu education for certain race groups, under 'ANCHATE' we have Bantu education for everyone.

I say that to teachers with decades of experience and they nod their heads in agreement.

 

[sox63]

Change that from "No science and mathematics" to little.

Under Apartheid we had Bantu education for certain race groups, under 'ANCHATE' we have Bantu education for everyone.

I say that to teachers with decades of experience and they nod their heads in agreement.

Could you provide proof? As I can't seem to find archived legislation sites.

The sad thing is that you think the quality of education NOW is the same as then. Are all schools teaching students for menial jobs only? Becuase that was the point of Bantu education. Truelly sad.

 

[Vrotappel]

I wonder how much AA costs this country.

How much skills have left this country thanks to AA?

What about the indirect costs to the economy? Simon expects to have his education for free. He expects it not to be too difficult. He demands good pay for shoddy work. He delivers shoddy work. When a new post is advertised he is automatically jumped to the top of the queue. He can demand more pay because he is a PDP. I work in Government and I see it happen every single day. I can see what happens where a person who knows what he is doing is replaced with someone with 'potential'. Zim is now reaping what it sowed.

The ANC has created this 'hand-out' generation. We are going to go the road of Zim if the attitude of ‘chip on my shoulder black people’ doesn’t change.

 

[lsuacner]

sox63
Well ask a student today who has had science to distinguish between an acid and a base and he will not be able to answer you.
What percentage of black people managed to finish higher grade maths?
As far as education goes, do you REALLY think the ANC has done much more than the NP?
My mom is a teacher, the kids she got 10 years ago were much better educated than the ones she teaches now.
You raise an interesting point, given that the HDI takes in to account life expectancy also (causing a dramatic drop, but education ratings has also dropped) but what does education help the population anyway. A person can hold a Masters degree, but once he has AIDS, it does not mean much does it? viva ANC though.

No. In case you haven't checked, Afrikaners are still running the show and they'll do whatever it takes to keep it that way. The only reason why my boss is an engineeering manager today, is because he's a white afrkaner. Never mind that he's dumb as a mule. Hates being corrected, especially by your's truely. I happen to think he's in way over his head, as he's
bullsh!tted his way through life.

Needles to say, i won't paint all white people with the same brush. Just as much as you shouldn't. One story (Doubtr if it's true) of a black guy who's told a lie about his licence doesn't mean much in the bigger picture.

A bit prejudiced.. 'all Afrikaners' really you are arrogant. Consider however, if Afrikaners don't really care much for anyone but themselves, do black people look after the needs of Afrikaners though?
I don't see black people reaching out to the poor Afrikaners, instead you mock the people watching cars in the parking lot. That is easier to do than to help your black brothers who often resort to stealing cars instead.

You think your boss is not aware of your arrogant attitude? As a model employee you imagine yourself to be, should you not work around his weaknesses in order to improve relations? Instead you bemoan his his skin colour and wash your hands of blame.

There is a so called engineer working at a mine where I was employed, she sleeps all day in her office, is incapable of doing her job and the financial staff has to explain to her how to do the basic things in the mine when she does take some responsibility. I consider myself a better engineer than she is.

 

[alloytoo]

Could you provide proof? As I can't seem to find archived legislation sites.

The sad thing is that you think the quality of education NOW is the same as then. Are all schools teaching students for menial jobs only? Becuase that was the point of Bantu education. Truelly sad.

Proof that the teacher nodded?

The sad thing is that dispite the promises of education from governement, and despite the huge budget allocated for the task, we are still not producing the goods.

Sad thing is that while Bantu education was planned to be inferior, this current education simply is bad, without planning.

 

[Nod]

You can't give quality education with 40+ kids in the class. Even in my day with only 28-32 kids, it was a struggle.

 

[sox63]

Proof that the teacher nodded?

Nope, proof of the legislation provided from where you say Maths and Science were offered. I got that quote from Wiki, which is not the most reliable source at the best of times.

 

[alloytoo]

Nope, proof of the legislation provided from where you say Maths and Science were offered. I got that quote from Wiki, which is not the most reliable source at the best of times.

ah, I fear you misunderstood my point (or I expressed myself poorly).

Change that from "No science and mathematics" to little.

What I ment was change "No science and mathematics" in formal Bantu education (in the past), to "Little" science and Mathematics (or indeed Reading & Writing) in the present.

Recent news reports have been most vocal about the lack in our science and Maths educations.

Bantu education was not only an abomination, it was also a stupid policy, one of the factors contributing to today's skill's vacuum.

Unfortunately since 1994 the ANC have faired little better, many feel that the situation has worsened.

Compared to post liberation Zimbabwe education, South African post liberation education is a shameful disaster, especially in the light of the resources currently been allocated to it.

 

[sox63]

ah, I fear you misunderstood my point (or I expressed myself poorly).



What I ment was change "No science and mathematics" in formal Bantu education (in the past), to "Little" science and Mathematics (or indeed Reading & Writing) in the present.

Recent news reports have been most vocal about the lack in our science and Maths educations.

Bantu education was not only an abomination, it was also a stupid policy, one of the factors contributing to today's skill's vacuum.

Unfortunately since 1994 the ANC have faired little better, many feel that the situation has worsened.

Compared to post liberation Zimbabwe education, South African post liberation education is a shameful disaster, especially in the light of the resources currently been allocated to it.

The present day outcry is for maths and Sciences TEACHERS. The subjects are offered at every school. And becuase of the past policies we have a skills shortage that you pointed out.

 

[alloytoo]

The present day outcry is for maths and Sciences TEACHERS. The subjects are offered at every school. And becuase of the past policies we have a skills shortage that you pointed out.

"No teachers?"

So, who is teaching those subjects?

My point is, that the ANC's education policies have since 1994 been more interested changing idiology than meaningful education.

After how many generations are they going to stop blaming Bantu education?

I really believe Naledi Pandor has her head screwed on properly, unfortunately she appears to be struggling against a system which instead of repairing, the ANC has effectively intrenched.

 

[BandwidthAddict]

I do not know and I want to learn:

During apartheid, were private black schools in the homeland illegal? If they were illegal, who made them illegal, the Nats or the homeland government? Please provide proof as unsubstantiated claims bare no fruit.

I ask because the Indians had private schools and I am genuinely interested in learning the truth of that time, regardless of how I might feel about it.

 

[Jozi101]

I do not know and I want to learn:

During apartheid, were private black schools in the homeland illegal? If they were illegal, who made them illegal, the Nats or the homeland government? Please provide proof as unsubstantiated claims bare no fruit.

I ask because the Indians had private schools and I am genuinely interested in learning the truth of that time, regardless of how I might feel about it.

AFAIK there were no black private black schools back then. Every part of a black man's life was controlled to keep him in his subservient role to the white man. I would imagine giving black people the space to have their own private schools would've gone against that plan!

 

[Nod]

AFAIK there were no black private black schools back then. Every part of a black man's life was controlled to keep him in his subservient role to the white man. I would imagine giving black people the space to have their own private schools would've gone against that plan!

Under what did farm schools fall? Private or public?

A lot of these schools were burned down for no reason (logical that is).

 

[alloytoo]

AFAIK there were no black private black schools back then. Every part of a black man's life was controlled to keep him in his subservient role to the white man. I would imagine giving black people the space to have their own private schools would've gone against that plan!

It seems to go against Thabo's plan too.