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African solutions to African problems.
- Thread starter daveza
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Yet the life expectancy has been falling since 1994, and the government until very recently denied the existence of the biggest culprit.
Sounds to me like the apartheid system was actually doing a better job, doesn't it?
As for quality of eduction - South Africa regularly ranks at the bottom of nations surveyed in terms literacy and numeracy. Again, one has to question how much more effective the post-apartheid education system is than the Bantu (as it was then called - I'm not being racist) education system was.
I'm afraid that I'm far from convinced that the current government is addressing these issues effectively. Sure it's throwing money at them, but are we seeing results?
Not quite sure what stats you are using but according to Resbank KBP6006Y GDP at constant 2000 prices, I get the following:
1994: R779,429 million
2008: R1,271,717
This represents a total growth of 63% much lower than your stated statistic. Are you using constant (inflation adjusted) or current (non-inflation adjusted) stats. Please reveal your source.
Over your stated 9 years the figures are as follows:
1994: R779,429 million
2003: R1,012,763 million
A much lower growth rate of 30%. Quite where you got 283% I'm not sure. Must have been from those ANC politicians?
Secondly, when looking at growth rates, one must also consider the comparative growth rate of SA vs other countries i.e. a growth rate of 3% when the growth rate of the rest of the world is 5% is poor. In essence, the country is underperforming. Under Mbeki, this was particularly true.
You may have noted, that now that the rest of the world is experiencing a shrinking economy, so is SA. Perhaps we were just riding the global wave, and the ANC can't really take credit for all that growth?
Edit: Just followed your link:
Secondly: I suggest you read up on how to do percentage calculations:
(R1 209 495 - R 426 132) / (R426 132) x 100 = 184%
NOT:
(R1 209 495 / 426 132) x 100 = 284%
Seems that post-apartheid schooling that you benefitted from didn't teach you how to perform basic mathematical calculations. Clearly, it isn't as good as you think. For someone who claims to be sitting at a board level, this is a pretty basic mistake.
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The Economist
Active Member
Lets do this 
China is simply a fast growing economy that needs resources, and most of the world's untapped resources that happen to be in abundant supply is, Africa. China gives us capital, we give them resources.
What have the G8 steal from Africa?
Other than a few of them being former colonialists? From what I know, they were ambitious people who have built up empires for themselves. Do you honestly blame Africa's current poor condition's on the G8? I'm not going to delve into things colonialists did hundreds of years ago, whether it was building infrastructure or harming locals.
The USA was a former colony, so was South Korea, Hong Kong, these places aren't really suffering now are they? I'm sure they have had just as much "stolen" from them. Now what? USA is the world's largest economy, South Korea, a country the size of the Western Cape has a trillion dollar economy and Hong Kong being one of the busiest financial hubs in the world.
I don't see them complaining, asking for hand outs? Africa's problem lies with efficiency and productivity. Something Africa lacks but what these country had plenty of to get them where they are today. In fact, they used what colonialists left them and built themselves up quite nicely.
Does it really matter which colour they are or where they are from? The biggest mistake, other than Apartheid itself, was introducing Bantu education and creating 3 generations of ignorant people.
No they haven't tripled our economy. More on that later.
And also, if you were to state that the benefaction of having 2 million people under houses was and can only have been provided by the ANC has factual, you are wrong. Who are you to say if, lets say Inkhata got in, they could not have done the same, even the NP.
I agree with you there. A country with 78% blacks, of which majority are poor, budget has to be allocated on the blacks. The minority have always been well off, but can be managed much much better, this goes for the blacks as well. It's effeminacy, something this country's government lacks.
You lack knowledge. The west sanctioned the Apartheid regime. The ANC was considered terrorists because they blew up bombs and killed people. I'm sure this constitutes as terrorism, whatever the motives, be it political, like at the time, or religious, like in the middle east.
Get your facts straight.
I'm genuinely happy for you, these are the stories I like to hear
And now into history. Apartheid lasted for under 50 years? Before then were free people as well, the Boers, who wanted independence from the British who kept creeping up to "Anglonise" South Africa. The "injustices" might have been a few conflicts, bot no racist regimes. These conflicts involved whites killing blacks or blacks killing whites, both being initiated by each other. by your argument, blacks also did injustice to whites for the past 350 years.
Every Mathematician and Statician will tell you, your math is off
More for whites, obvious reasons of course.
Again, very very inefficiently.
The minority may complain, why? Because they had efficiency.
If this same efficiency was held, and spread to blacks as well, South Africa would be a much more prosperous states, with less "whiney" people.
Don't blame the minority if they do complain. But what the minority should realise also, is that the majority, now has access to infrastructure they previously never had. (Again, although the current government could do a MUCH better job)
SA, a sanctioned country, now opened up to world investment?
What do you expect? Be it Inkhata or the NP, these growths could have been achived.
And also, your GDP growth of 283% argument is extremely flawed:
South Africa in 1994, the exchange rate was: R3
South Africa in 2003, the exchange rate was: R6
R1.2 Billion devalued by a 100%. Real growth was only to R600Billion. A growth from R426Billion to R600Billlion, growth is at 20%.
Hope I educated you, it was fun
China is simply a fast growing economy that needs resources, and most of the world's untapped resources that happen to be in abundant supply is, Africa. China gives us capital, we give them resources.
What have the G8 steal from Africa?
Other than a few of them being former colonialists? From what I know, they were ambitious people who have built up empires for themselves. Do you honestly blame Africa's current poor condition's on the G8? I'm not going to delve into things colonialists did hundreds of years ago, whether it was building infrastructure or harming locals.
The USA was a former colony, so was South Korea, Hong Kong, these places aren't really suffering now are they? I'm sure they have had just as much "stolen" from them. Now what? USA is the world's largest economy, South Korea, a country the size of the Western Cape has a trillion dollar economy and Hong Kong being one of the busiest financial hubs in the world.
I don't see them complaining, asking for hand outs? Africa's problem lies with efficiency and productivity. Something Africa lacks but what these country had plenty of to get them where they are today. In fact, they used what colonialists left them and built themselves up quite nicely.
Does it really matter which colour they are or where they are from? The biggest mistake, other than Apartheid itself, was introducing Bantu education and creating 3 generations of ignorant people.
No they haven't tripled our economy. More on that later.
And also, if you were to state that the benefaction of having 2 million people under houses was and can only have been provided by the ANC has factual, you are wrong. Who are you to say if, lets say Inkhata got in, they could not have done the same, even the NP.
I agree with you there. A country with 78% blacks, of which majority are poor, budget has to be allocated on the blacks. The minority have always been well off, but can be managed much much better, this goes for the blacks as well. It's effeminacy, something this country's government lacks.
You lack knowledge. The west sanctioned the Apartheid regime. The ANC was considered terrorists because they blew up bombs and killed people. I'm sure this constitutes as terrorism, whatever the motives, be it political, like at the time, or religious, like in the middle east.
Get your facts straight.
I'm genuinely happy for you, these are the stories I like to hear
And now into history. Apartheid lasted for under 50 years? Before then were free people as well, the Boers, who wanted independence from the British who kept creeping up to "Anglonise" South Africa. The "injustices" might have been a few conflicts, bot no racist regimes. These conflicts involved whites killing blacks or blacks killing whites, both being initiated by each other. by your argument, blacks also did injustice to whites for the past 350 years.
Every Mathematician and Statician will tell you, your math is off
More for whites, obvious reasons of course.
Again, very very inefficiently.
The minority may complain, why? Because they had efficiency.
If this same efficiency was held, and spread to blacks as well, South Africa would be a much more prosperous states, with less "whiney" people.
Don't blame the minority if they do complain. But what the minority should realise also, is that the majority, now has access to infrastructure they previously never had. (Again, although the current government could do a MUCH better job)
SA, a sanctioned country, now opened up to world investment?
What do you expect? Be it Inkhata or the NP, these growths could have been achived.
And also, your GDP growth of 283% argument is extremely flawed:
South Africa in 1994, the exchange rate was: R3
South Africa in 2003, the exchange rate was: R6
R1.2 Billion devalued by a 100%. Real growth was only to R600Billion. A growth from R426Billion to R600Billlion, growth is at 20%.
Hope I educated you, it was fun
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The Economist
Active Member
Haha, Tassidar beat me to it
There was no medical services?
Hmmmmmm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Hani_Baragwanath_Hospital
The only problem the present government addressed was to change the name of the hospital and to allow it to deteriorate to the state it's in today.
This is just one example, a pretty big one at that. Go look for Kempton Hospital online, actually go to Facebook and look for a group that exists about hauntings (slightyly off topic) and look at the pictures that are posted there. You will notice the hospital was shut down and almost all of the equipment was left behind, the problems have been addressed for sure!
We are debating loads of points all within the topic of this thread - African solutions to African problems.
HA HA HA HA
Proof , you're joking aren't you?
Used 20 years to fix 150 years wounded past
100% TRUE
African people always blame for ........ everything but never ask "how do they can do better".
From 1840 British invade China up to 1989 China open market, more than hundred years of suffering from the West, any African people could tell me how Chinese people sufferred? How many people in China being killed, executed, raped, robbed, being slave etc.........
Major instances as follow, (simplified)
1842 British invaded China
1857 British and France invaded China
1881 Russia invaded China
1900 British, USA, Japan, Germany, Russia, France, Austria, Italy invade China
1914 Japan invade China because of 1st world war (battle with Germany inside China border)
1931 Japan invade China 's north east three provinces
1937 Japan declared war with China
1939 Second world war start
1949 China Splitted into two (Mainland China and Taiwan)
From 1950 to 1976 under "chairman mo" 's ruling, communism "dark age ruling"
up to 1989 "tang" changed policies from communism to capitalism.
I want to ask those African people, what are your excuse? 15 years not enough to change the damage of old apartheid regime (less than 50 years)? Why China can repair the 150 years damage from the past. (external and internal) in 20 years time? How you do your Maths?
China never ask for a cent compensation from any invaders.
China never need "AA" or "BEE" for fixing the past.
China never ask western country for any assistant.
China never blame any invader for any colonist.
Who did it for Chinese people? Only themselves.
African people, only the source to fix the past -> yourself only, don't blame the past. I think China can tell you that is not the excuse.
(If you don't believe, you are not doing your history. If you do not know history, you are not going to learn from the past.)
Lets do this
China is simply a fast growing economy that needs resources, and most of the world's untapped resources that happen to be in abundant supply is, Africa. China gives us capital, we give them resources.
The USA was a former colony, so was South Korea, Hong Kong, these places aren't really suffering now are they? I'm sure they have had just as much "stolen" from them. Now what? USA is the world's largest economy, South Korea, a country the size of the Western Cape has a trillion dollar economy and Hong Kong being one of the busiest financial hubs in the world.
I don't see them complaining, asking for hand outs? Africa's problem lies with efficiency and productivity. Something Africa lacks but what these country had plenty of to get them where they are today. In fact, they used what colonialists left them and built themselves up quite nicely.
100% TRUE
African people always blame for ........ everything but never ask "how do they can do better".
From 1840 British invade China up to 1989 China open market, more than hundred years of suffering from the West, any African people could tell me how Chinese people sufferred? How many people in China being killed, executed, raped, robbed, being slave etc.........
Major instances as follow, (simplified)
1842 British invaded China
1857 British and France invaded China
1881 Russia invaded China
1900 British, USA, Japan, Germany, Russia, France, Austria, Italy invade China
1914 Japan invade China because of 1st world war (battle with Germany inside China border)
1931 Japan invade China 's north east three provinces
1937 Japan declared war with China
1939 Second world war start
1949 China Splitted into two (Mainland China and Taiwan)
From 1950 to 1976 under "chairman mo" 's ruling, communism "dark age ruling"
up to 1989 "tang" changed policies from communism to capitalism.
I want to ask those African people, what are your excuse? 15 years not enough to change the damage of old apartheid regime (less than 50 years)? Why China can repair the 150 years damage from the past. (external and internal) in 20 years time? How you do your Maths?
China never ask for a cent compensation from any invaders.
China never need "AA" or "BEE" for fixing the past.
China never ask western country for any assistant.
China never blame any invader for any colonist.
Who did it for Chinese people? Only themselves.
African people, only the source to fix the past -> yourself only, don't blame the past. I think China can tell you that is not the excuse.
(If you don't believe, you are not doing your history. If you do not know history, you are not going to learn from the past.)
F
Fudzy
Guest
The Chinese also went communist for a while.
That's what i was getting at.You asked for proof,news24 gave it.Whether it was true or not, you should've challenge that.
If you quote someone or highlight some parts,you respond to that.If everybody just shoot in all directions the whole discussion becomes pointless.
The whole discussion is actually pointless because there will never be African solutions for African problems because it's far too easy to hold out the begging bowl to the west... (See Murgarbage and Morgan). That in itself perpetuates the problem (See Ethiopia etc). The solutions given by the west benefit only those who get their hands on the "solution" first.
Albereth
Honorary Master
Pretty sure that it was unequal ito tax contribution.
Africa's problems will never be solved until African's start taking responsibility for their own actions and stop blaming the past.
Just like some-one being caught for corruption and blaming it all on the person who bribed them instead of themselves for taking the bribe.
We've had years and years of tinpot dictators taking whatever they can for themselves and not looking out for the interests of their people, and then blaming all their countries problems on the west.
Sadly it will just keep happening and there is nothing we can do about it as long as they have these attitudes.
Just like some-one being caught for corruption and blaming it all on the person who bribed them instead of themselves for taking the bribe.
We've had years and years of tinpot dictators taking whatever they can for themselves and not looking out for the interests of their people, and then blaming all their countries problems on the west.
Sadly it will just keep happening and there is nothing we can do about it as long as they have these attitudes.
STS
Mafia Detective
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100% TRUE
African people always blame for ........ everything but never ask "how do they can do better".
I want to ask those African people, what are your excuse? 15 years not enough to change the damage of old apartheid regime (less than 50 years)? Why China can repair the 150 years damage from the past. (external and internal) in 20 years time? How you do your Maths?
China never ask for a cent compensation from any invaders.
China never need "AA" or "BEE" for fixing the past.
China never ask western country for any assistant.
China never blame any invader for any colonist.
Who did it for Chinese people? Only themselves.
African people, only the source to fix the past -> yourself only, don't blame the past. I think China can tell you that is not the excuse.
(If you don't believe, you are not doing your history. If you do not know history, you are not going to learn from the past.)
i hope you're including yourself amongst those African people
many African's DON'T blame apartheid for all their problems. and China had different problems to what our country had. if you remember China was ALREADY an advanced civilisation.
many African leaders stay the stereotypical African leader. why? becoz who supports them? or should all African's vote for chinese people now becoz they fixed their country so much faster?
lastly, to make fun of someone's maths skills when your english is so atrocious is funny
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i hope you're including yourself amongst those African people
Sorry, I am not African. Don't count me.
I have a REAL story for you.
I went to a local small post office (one counter) for just a stamp. One AFRICAN woman in front of me and like to post THOUSAND of registered letters by counter, I waited more than 30 mins and about 10 people behind me. Then I spoke to this lady and ask her "Could you please consider the other people and post your letter to the other larger Post office?" And she said, "Now is not APARTHEID why I have to consider your people?"
What you will say?
Any different countries have different problem, China had problem or not I think it is out of topic. But I don't think China's problems are more easier to solve than the Africa's one.
So you said African poeple have lower civilisation than the others people?
I am telling you, you are RASCIST now.
many African leaders stay the stereotypical African leader. why? becoz who supports them? or should all African's vote for chinese people now becoz they fixed their country so much faster?
No one said that.
African people have to know how the problems can be solved by learning the other's experiences.
lastly, to make fun of someone's maths skills when your english is so atrocious is funny
Doesn't matter, at least you understand and know how to reply.
I hope that if I use the other language you will understand better.
For next time may be better I talk to you in ZULU? But I don't know zulu...... sorry.
Empiricism Philosopher
Expert Member
How is it racist saying chinese had a better system than african? Uhhhhh they did have, point.
Just one point, if you don't understand how globalisation, wto and the g8 etc then yes, the west is the best thing to Africa since sliced bread! lmfao. Africa does have other issues too though like dumb greedy leaders etc but then the west never gave a crap when signing deals these countries either..
US debt is 1 trillion and will be 1.8trillion be yr end, better hope no-one calls in their loans to them
US debt is 1 trillion and will be 1.8trillion be yr end, better hope no-one calls in their loans to them