An Accidental War

I didn't say it was logical or that it would work, but that seems to be the prevailing political mindset.
And I didn't say you did. ;) I was just trying to explain why such a plan is bordering on pathalogical stupidity. But I guess that's more or less what we have come to expect from the Bush regime. :p
 
I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of this buildup is just US posturing and rhetoric to try and force the Iranians to remove Ahmidenijad themselves or slow down on the nuclear weapons program. Bush also desperately needs a propaganda victory for political purposes. Ever see that movie Wag The Dog?
Please clarify "nuclear weapons program." Not according to anything I've read or heard.
 
Please clarify "nuclear weapons program." Not according to anything I've read or heard.

Wasn't the best choice of wording, the nuclear enrichment programme, centrifuges etc. that's all public knowledge. I know I shouldn't technically have referred to it as that.
 
Wasn't the best choice of wording, the nuclear enrichment programme, centrifuges etc. that's all public knowledge. I know I shouldn't technically have referred to it as that.
Nah, even that is wrong: listen to alanf: if they have a gazillion centrifuges maybe in a few years they would have a small bomb, just one note: with this they are going to conquer the world. I'm sure Orwell had a label for this "doublespeak," your easy label shows how easy it is to create the enemy.
 
besides, if you look at the nuke-enabled countries that hate a whole bunch of other countries.. thus far, no one's blown anyone else up. The only thing that makes Iran special, is that it has oil, it also potentially threatens the US's chums Saudi Arabia (goodfella's in toga's) - as well as Israel..
Trying to suggest that 'Iranians' are inherently evil or are going to auto-attack X with nukes, is racist propaganda.
North Korea hates almost every country - and is run by a real crazy nut job, yet hasn't dared to launch attacks against anyone.
The nuclear option, once used - means Mutually Assured Destruction for the launcher and the launchee.

BESIDES - by using 'depleted uranium' weaponry - the US has been in effect using nuclear weapons, with no one pointing a serious finger at them..
 
Nah, even that is wrong: listen to alanf: if they have a gazillion centrifuges maybe in a few years they would have a small bomb, just one note: with this they are going to conquer the world. I'm sure Orwell had a label for this "doublespeak," your easy label shows how easy it is to create the enemy.

It wasn't the best way of wording but I was also talking about US govt perceptions, I think they do want to create the perception that they have nukes or are going to get them etc. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the more hardline ones actually believe it themselves.
 
Yes I do deny that. The Shia militia cannot be said to be targetting or attacking coalition troops. The conflicts that have occured are cases of wrong-place wrong-time or mistaken identity and its more often than not that the coalition forces initiate the battle.


Oh so when Billy Bob is driving down the road in his Humvee and Ahad just happens too, by mistake, press a button(he no doubt thinks it's his Cell or something) that detonates a Iranian supplied cone shaped IED specifically designed to penetrate armour as Billy Bob drives over it.:eek: . No doubt Ahad will be p1ssed because that IED was meant instead for an old bus full of Sunni's:rolleyes:

But I guess that's Billy Bob's fault isn't it.


For the moment the Shia are happy to ignore the Coalition forces because they got rid of Saddam and they're actively battling the Sunnis. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" and all that.


Really. Why are these Iranian backed Shia militia murdering Sunni's. After all they are the majority and wield the power in a Democracy. I thought Iran was a civilised, peacefull democracy so why back these guys? I presume you disagree with Kilo and his "peace will follow a U.S withdrawel" theory then?


So you don't deny that Hezbollah has a right to invade the US.

Yes I do.


And the kidnapping occured as a means to elicit a prisoner exchange because Israel kidnapped Lebanese civilians at random the last time they pulled out of the country after a bloody occupation which was also fought thanks to the fact that the US was supplying Israel with financial aid as well as arms. The same occupation which created Hezbollah in the first place.

So why did Israel occupy Lebanon? Why is Hezbollah not resisting Syrian domination of Lebanon? Why would Israel hold onto these "innocent" prisoners after pulling out of Lebanon? Also what about Hezbollah aims to turn Lebanon into an Islamic state modeled on Iran's Sharia law and Israel should be "removed". As you can see that their aims are far more than mere kicking Israel out of Lebanon and freeing some "innocent" captives


Why don't you tell me?

You don't know :eek:

"The Great Satan" duh

http://www.answers.com/topic/great-satan


Where's your source?

http://abcnews.go.com/International/IraqCoverage/story?id=1692347&page=1


Seems that way to me.

Why am I not surprised :rolleyes:
 
alanf85 said:
Oh so when Billy Bob is driving down the road in his Humvee and Ahad just happens too, by mistake, press a button(he no doubt thinks it's his Cell or something) that detonates a Iranian supplied cone shaped IED specifically designed to penetrate armour as Billy Bob drives over it. . No doubt Ahad will be p1ssed because that IED was meant instead for an old bus full of Sunni's

But I guess that's Billy Bob's fault isn't it.
IEDs? Sorry, but how do you know those IEDs are going to the Shiites and not the Sunnis? Are you claiming that the Sunnis do not use IEDs? If they do, where do they get them from?

Really. Why are these Iranian backed Shia militia murdering Sunni's. After all they are the majority and wield the power in a Democracy. I thought Iran was a civilised, peacefull democracy so why back these guys? I presume you disagree with Kilo and his "peace will follow a U.S withdrawel" theory then?
Iraq is not a democracy. The US gives an order and the Iraqi government jumps. You call that being a vassal state, not a democracy.

And who on earth claimed Iran was a democracy?

As for why the sects are after each other's blood, the fact that they're different sects seems to be enough for both sides.

And yes, when the US troops withdraw all hell will break loose. The US troops cannot remain in Iraq indefinately and they cannot pacify the Iraqis, so imo the sooner they cut and run, the less people die in the long run.

Yes I do.
Hypocrite. :rolleyes:

So why did Israel occupy Lebanon?
You tell me. But based on the fact that they still occupy parts of Lebanon (and have started building settlements on the land), I'd say it was a simple land-grab.

Also what about Hezbollah aims to turn Lebanon into an Islamic state modeled on Iran's Sharia law and Israel should be "removed".
It's bullsh!t... that's about it. Hezbollah is on record as saying that Lebanon belongs to everyone in it, including the Christians and other islamic sects. They have no intent to turn it into an Islamic theocracy.

As you can see that their aims are far more than mere kicking Israel out of Lebanon and freeing some "innocent" captives
Not really. Hezbollah did not exist before the first Lebanon invasion. Hezbollah has abandoned its aim of making Lebanon an Islamic state. Hezbollah promotes women's rights - hardly the act of a group of fundamentalists hell-bent on imposing Sharia on everyone.

Yeah, still no proof of shia involvement anywhere.

And now that you're making a habit of leaving threads alone for a while and then going back to them, perhaps you'd return your attention to this thread :
http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?t=62528

I'm still waiting for an answer.
 
IEDs? Sorry, but how do you know those IEDs are going to the Shiites and not the Sunnis? Are you claiming that the Sunnis do not use IEDs? If they do, where do they get them from?

Uh I was talking about Iranian supplied cone shaped IED specifically designed to penetrate armour. Iran wouldn't supply Sunni's with those.


Iraq is not a democracy. The US gives an order and the Iraqi government jumps. You call that being a vassal state, not a democracy.

Yeah right.


And who on earth claimed Iran was a democracy?

The Iranian's claim they are. So quite :eek: ingly do some forumites here it seems:o . Have you perhaps claimed it so in previous posts? Maybe I should take as look at your previous posts if I find the time.


As for why the sects are after each other's blood, the fact that they're different sects seems to be enough for both sides.

They have a common enemy in the "infidel" which outweighs any hostility between "sects"


And yes, when the US troops withdraw all hell will break loose. The US troops cannot remain in Iraq indefinately and they cannot pacify the Iraqis, so imo the sooner they cut and run, the less people die in the long run.

Hear that Kilo?



Hypocrite. :rolleyes:

You obviously don't know the meaning of the word

You tell me. But based on the fact that they still occupy parts of Lebanon (and have started building settlements on the land), I'd say it was a simple land-grab.

Again, you really don't know about this either. What "parts" might those be?


It's bullsh!t... that's about it. Hezbollah is on record as saying that Lebanon belongs to everyone in it, including the Christians and other islamic sects. They have no intent to turn it into an Islamic theocracy.

So why are they causing all that trouble with the current government then?


Not really. Hezbollah did not exist before the first Lebanon invasion. Hezbollah has abandoned its aim of making Lebanon an Islamic state. Hezbollah promotes women's rights - hardly the act of a group of fundamentalists hell-bent on imposing Sharia on everyone.


Oh so now they have abandoned it. So why did they do that? So it was an aim in the first place. That's a little worrisome isn't it?


Yeah, still no proof of shia involvement anywhere.

:rolleyes:

And now that you're making a habit of leaving threads alone for a while and then going back to them, perhaps you'd return your attention to this thread :
http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?t=62528

I'm still waiting for an answer.

Well I don't have infinite spare time to keep up with all these threads. A few slip by the way side.

I did answer you. I think I've mentioned that before. Don't ask me why it didn't come up and I'm not going to rewrite it untill I have enough free time and whether I feel like it or not.
 
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Uh I was talking about Iranian supplied cone shaped IED specifically designed to penetrate armour. Iran wouldn't supply Sunni's with those.
Why not? I thought you said they had a bigger mutual enemy?

Yeah right.
So you deny that the Americans handpicked the candidates that were eligible to run for the Iraqi government?

The Iranian's claim they are. So quite ingly do some forumites here it seems . Have you perhaps claimed it so in previous posts? Maybe I should take as look at your previous posts if I find the time.
Now that you mention it I probably did. But then it also occurs to me that the Iranian public got to vote for the current president. So come to think of it I guess they are a democracy, even if not a western one.

They have a common enemy in the "infidel" which outweighs any hostility between "sects"
Oh, yet they won't supply IEDs to the sunnis? Make up your mind, would you?

Again, you really don't know about this either. What "parts" might those be?
The Shebaa farms.

So why are they causing all that trouble with the current government then?
Charges of corruption mostly - along with some accusations of putting Syria's interests over Lebanon's. It should interest you that the Christians and other muslim sects are standing with Hezbollah on this one.

Oh so now they have abandoned it. So why did they do that? So it was an aim in the first place. That's a little worrisome isn't it?
I dunno. The west abandoned slavery - should that be worrisome?

People do actually learn from their mistakes on rare occasions, you know.

I did answer you. I think I've mentioned that before. Don't ask me why it didn't come up and I'm not going to rewrite it untill I have enough free time and whether I feel like it or not.
Yeah, and last time you made vague claims of answering the thread sometime. I think it's a valid request and it really would save alot of back-and-forthing if we could finish one discussion rather than having to go through the same points nearly verbatim repeatedly. The other thread in question is nice and broad in scope and would do the job best. You say you don't have alot of time - I think that other thread is a great way of having to reduce the time you need to discuss these issues on the forum. ;)
 
Why not? I thought you said they had a bigger mutual enemy?


What about your claim of Iranians not giving weapons to "rivals". I thought you meant "sects" within Shia Islam. No the Iranians wouldn't give Sunnis these IED's nevermind nukes.


So you deny that the Americans handpicked the candidates that were eligible to run for the Iraqi government?

Yeah it's all a scam. How do you explain the various hardliners in parlament then.


Now that you mention it I probably did. But then it also occurs to me that the Iranian public got to vote for the current president. So come to think of it I guess they are a democracy, even if not a western one.

Oops :o

Oh, yet they won't supply IEDs to the sunnis? Make up your mind, would you?

It was a misunderstanding. You thought for some odd reason that when I said terrorists allies of Iran I somehow meant Sunnis .


The Shebaa farms.

What about Syria? Others say it belongs to Syria. I guess even if Israel hands over the Shebaa farms Hezbollah will find some other excuse. After all the whole state of Israel illegally occupies Muslim land anyway:rolleyes:


Charges of corruption mostly - along with some accusations of putting Syria's interests over Lebanon's. It should interest you that the Christians and other muslim sects are standing with Hezbollah on this one.

Really. I thought things were going reasonably well(Syrian meddling aside) untill Iranian ally Syria blew up Rafik Hariri and Hezbollah turned Lebanon into it's personal battlefield.


I dunno. The west abandoned slavery - should that be worrisome?

People do actually learn from their mistakes on rare occasions, you know.

Apples and oranges again.


Yeah, and last time you made vague claims of answering the thread sometime. I think it's a valid request and it really would save alot of back-and-forthing if we could finish one discussion rather than having to go through the same points nearly verbatim repeatedly. The other thread in question is nice and broad in scope and would do the job best. You say you don't have alot of time - I think that other thread is a great way of having to reduce the time you need to discuss these issues on the forum. ;)


So why did you ask again if you knew the answer :confused: . You are not obligated to post in any of these threads. Anyway I'm not reading through those last posts on that thread again just answer those few questions.
 
just to play devils advocate - there's no real reason why the US should care
one way or the other about any country outside of its own borders. Talking about this or that sub-group and massacres or no massacres is irrelevant to the actual big picture. The US are there in the region to occupy, secure their energy sources, and loot whatever they can.
If there was nothing of value to the US there, they wouldn't bother.

Which is why for instance, Zimbabwe isn't overflowing with US troops right now.
'Humanitarian reasons' are always just a cover for economic necessity.

Trying to point to one or another ethnic/religious groups weaknesses or failings as a reason for anything, is to fall into the big trap of thinking that
the various conflicts between citizens there is of any interest to the US at all.
They're not.
The real question to ask is: what are US troops doing in a country that has no connection to 911 and no ability to launch any physical attacks on US soil.
For a more complex possible view of what's unfolding, draw your own conclusions from 'The five dancing Israeli's Arrested on 911': http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fiveisraelis.html

lol... cute bed time story

whats funny about the conspiracy theorists is they have so many theories they themselves dont know which one to believe anymore
 
lol... cute bed time story

whats funny about the conspiracy theorists is they have so many theories they themselves dont know which one to believe anymore

I suppose it would get :confused: ing

What I don't get is LG lives under a "fascist" leadership yet propagates anti American propaganda (during a war) on a foreign forum and yet he hasn't ended up in Gitmo. I guess there's a conspiracy theory to explain that as well ;) .
 
Alanf85 said:
What about your claim of Iranians not giving weapons to "rivals". I thought you meant "sects" within Shia Islam. No the Iranians wouldn't give Sunnis these IED's nevermind nukes.
So then who is giving the Sunnis their IEDs? Or do you claim that the Sunnis aren't using them? That would be a pretty ridiculous claim to make.

Yeah it's all a scam. How do you explain the various hardliners in parlament then.
They're only relative hardliners. Just like all the democrats in the US are only relatively liberal. If one looks at the entire possible left/right scale then the US democrats are actually rightwingers.

What about Syria? Others say it belongs to Syria.
Well the fact of the matter is that before the 1967 invasion the land was under Lebanese jurisdiction.

I thought things were going reasonably well
Guess you thought wrong.

Apples and oranges again.
I see, so the fanatical muslims are incapable of learning or changing, is that it? :rolleyes:

Your claim of apples and oranges is bogus, and what more it's frankly disgusting.

So why did you ask again if you knew the answer.
Because your last answer indicated you intended to answer at some point.

You are not obligated to post in any of these threads.
On the contrary, I feel very much obliged to counter BS when I see it, especially BS propaganda that's used to justify attacking other nations.

Anyway I'm not reading through those last posts on that thread again just answer those few questions.
That's a pity. I guess I'll just have to make a generic set of responses and use them to refute your claims again and again and again and again, only to have you repeate those same claims the next time you get involved in a thread.

You really do the definition of fanatic justice, you know.
 
So then who is giving the Sunnis their IEDs? Or do you claim that the Sunnis aren't using them? That would be a pretty ridiculous claim to make.

Um you do know there are huge stockpiles of weapons across Iraq. I never claimed Sunnis don't have or use IEDs.

They're only relative hardliners. Just like all the democrats in the US are only relatively liberal. If one looks at the entire possible left/right scale then the US democrats are actually rightwingers.

Yikes :eek:


Well the fact of the matter is that before the 1967 invasion the land was under Lebanese jurisdiction.

Actually the region was under effective Syrian control. Even maps showed it as Syrian.

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=38&x_article=1184
http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,,1771766,00.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shebaa_Farms


Guess you thought wrong.

So did the Lebanese people and everyone else except Hezbollah, Syria and Iran.


I see, so the fanatical muslims are incapable of learning or changing, is that it? :rolleyes:

Not whole terrorist orginisations like Hezbollah. Their actions speak louder than words.


Your claim of apples and oranges is bogus, and what more it's frankly disgusting.

Boohoo


Because your last answer indicated you intended to answer at some point.

I might still answer it. Not very likely though.

On the contrary, I feel very much obliged to counter BS when I see it, especially BS propaganda that's used to justify attacking other nations.

Well then answer them and stop whining.

That's a pity. I guess I'll just have to make a generic set of responses and use them to refute your claims again and again and again and again, only to have you repeate those same claims the next time you get involved in a thread.

Likewise.

You really do the definition of fanatic justice, you know.

If that's so, then it takes two to tango.
 
Um you do know there are huge stockpiles of weapons across Iraq. I never claimed Sunnis don't have or use IEDs.
Those stockpiles did not include the IEDs otherwise they would have been used since the start of the resistance against the occupation (they only came later which means someone was supplying them). So, where did they come from?

Actually the region was under effective Syrian control. Even maps showed it as Syrian.
From the wiki link :

ebanese officials point to land deeds, stamped by the Lebanese government, that were held by a number of area residents in the 1940s and 1950s.


Harry S. Truman Research Instititute at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Dr. Asher Kaufman, came across documents in French government archives while researching the issue. In one, French litigants in a private dispute, and their arbitrators, entered into a private commercial agreement that suggested that the border should put the Farms in Lebanon. Two other documents, from 1937 and 1939, were reports from the administrative councillor of south Lebanon and the head of the Services Speciaux in the Syrian town of Quneitra. They noted a discrepancy between the border, as determined by the 1:200,000 Ottoman map, and their view of the "reality" in the region. Collecting "unofficial information" from "various sources," they concluded that in their view the area was Lebanese. Their conclusion, however, was based on the facts that: a) some area residents paid taxes to Lebanon; and b) 3 or 4 sheep pens in the Farms belonged to residents of the Lebanese village of Shaba. After Kaufman published his findings, an editorial in the Lebanese newspaper "the Daily Star" chided the Lebanese academic community, indicating that it was embarrassing that the discovery had been left to an Israeli researcher.

Besides which, Israel is also illegally occupying the Golan Heights - they shouldn't be on any of it regardless of whether or not it's lebanese or Syrian territory.

So did the Lebanese people and everyone else except Hezbollah, Syria and Iran.
Well the existance corruption isn't always immediately apparent to the outside observer. Funny how all the other Lebanese people other than Hezbollah are now agreeing with the position Hezbollah has taken. Why do you think that is?

Not whole terrorist orginisations like Hezbollah. Their actions speak louder than words.
So you include the zionists in that particular category then? They were only too happy to bomb british hotels when it suited their purposes.

Well then answer them and stop whining.
When did I not answer them?

As for whining, it's an 'interesting' take on trying to minimise pointless repetition.

If that's so, then it takes two to tango.
Not at all. Disagreeing with a fanatic does not make one a fanatic.
 
So you deny that the Americans handpicked the candidates that were eligible to run for the Iraqi government?


Now that you mention it I probably did. But then it also occurs to me that the Iranian public got to vote for the current president. So come to think of it I guess they are a democracy, even if not a western one.
In Tehran and some of the major cities, all of the seats were taken back by conservatives over reformists. This swing was caused by widespread abstention from the local elections. In Tehran only about 10% of the electorate voted, following appeals by reformist groups.

In February 2004 Parliament elections, the Council of Guardians banned thousands of candidates, including most of the reformist members of the parliament and all the candidates of the Islamic Iran Participation Front party from running. This led to a win by the conservatives of at least 70% of the seats. Approximately 60% of the eligible voting population participated in the elections....

If a law is deemed incompatible with the constitution or Sharia (Islamic law), it is referred back to Parliament for revision. In a controversial exercise of its authority, the Council has drawn upon a narrow interpretation of Iran's constitution to veto parliamentary candidates.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Iran

Sounds democratic ...NOT.
 
In Tehran and some of the major cities, all of the seats were taken back by conservatives over reformists. This swing was caused by widespread abstention from the local elections. In Tehran only about 10% of the electorate voted, following appeals by reformist groups.
Abstentation simply means that you choose not to vote.

In February 2004 Parliament elections, the Council of Guardians banned thousands of candidates, including most of the reformist members of the parliament and all the candidates of the Islamic Iran Participation Front party from running. This led to a win by the conservatives of at least 70% of the seats. Approximately 60% of the eligible voting population participated in the elections....
And the constitutional court at preset would ban Mbeki from running for president for a third time.

If a law is deemed incompatible with the constitution or Sharia (Islamic law), it is referred back to Parliament for revision. In a controversial exercise of its authority, the Council has drawn upon a narrow interpretation of Iran's constitution to veto parliamentary candidates.
No different from how our Constitutional court operates.
 
Abstentation simply means that you choose not to vote.


And the constitutional court at preset would ban Mbeki from running for president for a third time.


No different from how our Constitutional court operates.
Your replies are pretty silly.
I've demonstrated quite clearly that Iran is not a democracy. That the country is dominated by clerics who impose Islamic law - and if you don't agree with that idea, you never get 'chosen' for election.

Abstention from voting is also a vote of no confidence in the election process. It usually sends a very powerful signal. Though it would have to be a democracy to fully react to the signals. QED><
 
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