ANC elite hoodwinking poor - Moeletsi Mbeki

[empirex]

De Klerk was leaning to the right in the NP, he was against talks with the ANC. He saw a gap when PW got sick and created this image of a hero, he did it all for his benefit. The majority of the people in the NP & ANC at that time will tell you the same thing. Pik Botha, the guy that did the actual negotiations(?), Mandela, Tambo etc would all tell you exactly who FW is, a two faced pos looking out for his own interest.

Nelson was the head of Umkhonto we Sizwe, the military part of the ANC that targeted civilians. They were recognised as a terrorist organisation worldwide and Mandela's whereabouts was given to the SA gov at the time by the CIA. There were travel restriction on it's members post apartheid as these people were still recognised as terrorists. As a child I barely missed two of their bombings by minutes, wtf did I know about politics back then, others weren't so lucky. Even old Tutu chastised the ANC for targeting civilians. So it's not just for being 'black'.

Do I think Mandela changed as a person, yes. FW on the other is nothing but a chameleon. Either way you can't wipe things people do in their pasts under the carpet, people might forgive but they always remember.

Well I'll do a little more research into de Klerk, as you paint quite an ugly picture.

As for Mandela.
As I asked earlier -- what would you have done as our leader in his shoes. What if it was you and the rest of the White population under the boot of the Blacks for a lifetime.

Would you as the leader have resorted to violence when all else had failed, including yourself being jailed?

 

[ponder]

Would you as the leader have resorted to violence when all else had failed, including yourself being jailed?

Civilians, woman & children, NEVER! The infrastructure, government & armed forces I can understand, violence I abhor. Example, bomb a liberal place like magoo's or a church (think the church was the PAC, saw that on tv and recognised one of the dudes and it was not even something like the ng kerk).

I wish I can remember the name of that documentary, it was a real eye opener as it was basically just based on interviews with all the parties involved leading up to the unbanning of black political parties and Mandelas release. I use to think the same thing (good guy) about FW until I saw that.

There was one very funny part in that documentary with Mandela I still laugh about when I think back and in his interview he also laughed. Before his release he actually stayed in a nice house somewhere in nice CT suburb (for several years) and he had two guards with whom he apparently got on well with. They use to take him on drives to see what's going on and the one day they stopped at a shop in the road to get something to eat drink and they just left him in the car while they went to buy food/cooldrinks for all of them. He said he was sitting all alone in the car scheming about making a run for it but being scared at the same time and chuckled about it, the way he relayed the story nearly made me pee my pants with laughter

 

[blunomore]

It is one thing looking in from the outside and commenting/criticising ... and quite another sitting in the seat of power.

I prefer Mbeki being an objective outsider, as his analysis is very good and he clearly has his finger on the pulse. If he were in power himself, he would lose the ability to do that, because he would become subjective.

 

[sox63]

I usually agree with the Moeletsi Mbeki's analysis, however this one is so flawed its not funny. Obviously there could be some context that these statements were made in, but looking at them at face value begs a few questions...

Firstly its his definition of a "political elite", its seems he just says that if you are Black and live a middle class and above lifestyle, you are political elite? That is just plain silly, I consider myself middle class and I'm in no way politically active. And pretty sure there are millions others like me who dont dont have an affiliation to any political party, let alone the ANC.

Secondly, he seemingly lays the blame for a lack of economic development on the black middle class, never mind that this particular class of people do not control anywhere near the largest amount of capital in this country, he has left out white people for some reason. Speak to most industries and they will point to a marked increase in the effort they spend in attracting the disposable income of the new black middle class. And we go out and we spend that money, but its not just black people, its everyone in the middle class, but he seems to not notice that. I guess to him its okay that my white neighbor can go out and buy a new LCD tv, but I dare do the same thing, I'm engaging in "unsustainable overconsumption"? Uhm, okay Mr Mbeki...

And another confusing statement is this one

Mbeki said the political elite's private consumption was being funded by state revenue and had become a burden on taxpayers.

Working on his definition of a political elite, would we as black middle class not pay taxes as well? My payslip last week suggests a huge amount of my money goes to tax, so am I a burden to myself? Makes no sense...

Mbeki should have narrowed down his definition of a political elite to the politically connected black people out there that get ahead in life by exploiting their political contacts for monetary gain, NOT the black middle class as he claims in those statements.

Once again, I dont know the context these statements were in, but they seem flawed IMO...

 

[blunomore]

I usually agree with the Moeletsi Mbeki's analysis, however this one is so flawed its not funny. Obviously there could be some context that these statements were made in, but looking at them at face value begs a few questions...

Firstly its his definition of a "political elite", its seems he just says that if you are Black and live a middle class and above lifestyle, you are political elite? That is just plain silly, I consider myself middle class and I'm in no way politically active. And pretty sure there are millions others like me who dont dont have an affiliation to any political party, let alone the ANC.

Secondly, he seemingly lays the blame for a lack of economic development on the black middle class, never mind that this particular class of people do not control anywhere near the largest amount of capital in this country, he has left out white people for some reason. Speak to most industries and they will point to a marked increase in the effort they spend in attracting the disposable income of the new black middle class. And we go out and we spend that money, but its not just black people, its everyone in the middle class, but he seems to not notice that. I guess to him its okay that my white neighbor can go out and buy a new LCD tv, but I dare do the same thing, I'm engaging in "unsustainable overconsumption"? Uhm, okay Mr Mbeki...

And another confusing statement is this one


Working on his definition of a political elite, would we as black middle class not pay taxes as well? My payslip last week suggests a huge amount of my money goes to tax, so am I a burden to myself? Makes no sense...

Mbeki should have narrowed down his definition of a political elite to the politically connected black people out there that get ahead in life by exploiting their political contacts for monetary gain, NOT the black middle class as he claims in those statements.

Once again, I dont know the context these statements were in, but they seem flawed IMO...

If you read Mbeki's books (as opposed to the public speeches he makes regularly) you will see what his definition of black political elite is.

 

[sox63]

If you read Mbeki's books (as opposed to the public speeches he makes regularly) you will see what his definition of black political elite is.

Never read one his books, have you? If so, care to provide a definition?

 

[blunomore]

Never read one his books, have you? If so, care to provide a definition?

In his books, black political elite = black upper middle class = a class of intellectuals

 

[Nicodeamus]

In his books, black political elite = black upper middle class = a class of intellectuals

He actually concedes in his 2nd book (Advocates of change) that it is very difficult to define the black middle-class, which is what I believe is a flaw in some of his thinking, if you look at class analysis they all 'assume' that we know what class is, when in reality class is very difficult to define, it is like culture.