Antenna installation and alignment

Setup of poynting antenna to give 83mbit/sec download speed.

Hi I setup my poynting antenna A-XPOL-0002-V2 antenna to point in the general direction of the Telkom mobile tower. I would set the direction of the antenna, wait 30 seconds then read the rssi (Received Signal Strength Indicator) in the Huawei b593 router. I kept doing this until I got -43dbm which I think is a really good signal.

I have include some (cell phone) (sorry) pics for interest. I have also included the router RSSI and a network monitor of the download of a youtube file. The file downloaded at 11.1Mbyte/sec = 88 mbit/sec.

Really stunning results for Telkom LTE.

The base station is 1km north of me. I will measure gps cordinates and update this post.
Exciting stuff.

TBD: GPS coordiates of base station and antenna.
 

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Will check the base station. I know it is 1km north. Will post gps coordinates.

Thanks for the added info and the install pic - your installation looks nice and sturdy, and your XPOL looks great!

Don't worry too much about exact co-ordinates for the base-station (unless you want to, of course!). I was more interested in :
a) Whether you had gone for a directional install (you did, even though the XPOL-0002 is not as strongly directional as some other Poynting antennas)
b) Whether you'd aimed deliberately at a specific base station - seems you did it more the other way around, ie changed the azimuth until you got the best signal.
c) What sort of distance (roughly) between yourself and your station - you've said about 1km.

As far as getting hold of the base station ID .. no direct way to do that on the B593 itself, unfortunately (if you have the B593s-601, that is).

From the look of your speedtest results, it seems that there might not be many LTE users in your area yet - you may well have that station pretty much to yourself for the moment - enjoy! ;)
 
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Background to this post here but quoted below :

Hi,

I'm hoping somebody here can assist me.
We have the B593u-91 (on Telkom Mobile). My hubby went and bought an external antenna for it - (http://www.otto.co.za/products/ante...-dual-patch-antenna-9-db-with-5-meter-cables/) - dont ask, I gave him the contact details for Poynting, but he decided to rather get the 'cheaper' one...

Problem is, now the router is not picking up the external. When I have the paddle antennas in, and run the system check, it picks it up as external, but when we connect this thing, it still says built-in...

Not sure if the issue is with the router or the antenna... The people just tells us to manually switch it, and actually didnt believe us when we said there is no option for it :/
Not sure if a firmware update will help or not...

I've got
Hardware version: Ver.B
Software version :V100R001C372SP100

We are getting:
Signal strength: 1
RSRP: -113
RSRQ: -7

So you can see why we are so desperate to get it working ;)

Looking at specs of the antenna, it says "MIMO", not 2x2 MIMO, then polarization is "vertical" ...

I think sajunky may have a point there.

It's not the best specsheet, but it sure does give the impression that the two antenna elements are both vertically polarised :

Otto Wireless MIMO antenna.jpg

That's different to other dual-element antennas which achieve receive diversity by having the two elements mounted orthogonally inside the casing (ie they use polarisation diversity - two different signals by virtue of the two elements being polarised differently).

If it does indeed have dual elements that are both polarised the same way, then it would only be able to make use of spatial receive diversity (ie different signals due to the antenna elements being spatially separated). For that to work well, you would ideally want to be able to adjust the spacing of the two elements to get the best result. Since you can't do that, you're a bit snookered.

Since it seems that the B593u-91 can't be forced to use external antennas (?), it's automatically choosing the configuration which gives the best pair of signals in its present location - still the internal antennas.

If this is really the case, all you can really do is experiment with different positions (and possibly antenna orientations) to try and find a position that gives better spatial receive diversity. Ironically that is more likely to be somewhere indoors (!) where there are lots of signal reflections.

On a related note, Otto Wireless are now carrying more than one dual-element antenna which they are advertising as being suitable for LTE use, but where the elements appear to be very close together, and polarised the same way ... like this omni :

Otto Wireless MIMO-OA-0727-01.JPG

Personally, I can't see that those are going to work well for SA LTE in any but a few very specific situations ...
 
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Nice post, jcheek! A lot of these places are now flogging "LTE" antennas but you kinda get what you pay for. ;)
 
Nice post, jcheek! A lot of these places are now flogging "LTE" antennas but you kinda get what you pay for. ;)
They are LTE antennas indeed as 2x2 MIMO is not mandatory. :)

Also benefits of external antenna with B593 is unpredictable (at least). Many posts indicate this.

Having said so, it is important to read specs thoroughly.
 
Otto Wireless "LTE 16SMA-ST5000" dual patch antenna

Regarding this post concerning external antenna-related difficulties on the B593 :

1. Further thoughts on that particular antenna here

2. Feedback from the SA importer (Otto Wireless) here

Extract of reply from Otto Wireless in (2) above:
"I saw this come into stock at one point, but I stopped them after the first shipment. It was supposed to be a MIMO antenna, but it is not. What it is is 2 antennas in a box. One handles 1710MHz to 2170MHZ (which then handles MTN and Vodacom frequency bands for HSPA and LTE, but omits Telkom LTE which is at 2300MHz), and the other handles the old "GSM" band."

Bottom line is that that particular dual patch antenna should not be used for LTE.
 
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With regard to this post on the B593 thread :

@jcheek... yes, I will get comment from the manufacturer.
Great, thanks.


As far as the 12dB Omni goes.... yes, it is true.
Looking forward to seeing details appear on the website, I hope.

As for your last post, asking what antenna that is.... I saw this come into stock at one point, but I stopped them after the first shipment. It was supposed to be a MIMO antenna, but it is not. What it is is 2 antennas in a box. One handles 1710MHz to 2170MHZ (which then handles MTN and Vodacom frequency bands for HSPA and LTE, but omits Telkom LTE which is at 2300MHz), and the other handles the old "GSM" band.
Noted. Perfectly good for certain applications, just not SA LTE.

Your other question - why don't I like MIMO - probably just a personal preference ... if you give me a choice between the convenience of a MIMO, vs the performance of two separate antennas which have been properly installed and properly tuned, I will choose the two separate antennas every time. I just find that from a practical point of view, there is no MIMO that can cater for everything, and the fixed distance between the elements just does not allow me the flexibility to be a tinkering engineer...
OK, I understand your viewpoint.
It's worth noting, however, that some of the best signal stats recorded on these forums have been obtained with one-piece dual-element LTE antennas with orthogonally-polarised elements.
 
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With regard to this post on the B593 thread :

Noted. Perfectly good for certain applications, just not SA LTE.

Agree 100%. I should have pointed out that I had imported some samples in the early days of LTE, specifically to address LTE requirements, and that is why I removed it from stock. Not suitable for LTE
 
We have 2 Antenna suppliers, aside from the antennas we design ourselves.

Chang Hong has not replied about the dc-short yet.

Beyondoor has the dc-short present in most of their outdoor antennas, and has advised that it is usually required for lightning protection..... not giving away much info here.

Nevertheless, we are looking at the Beyondoor range of outdoor antennas a bit closer now, as this dc-short is clearly a requirement for some routers, whatever the reason.
 
We have 2 Antenna suppliers, aside from the antennas we design ourselves.

Chang Hong has not replied about the dc-short yet.

Beyondoor has the dc-short present in most of their outdoor antennas, and has advised that it is usually required for lightning protection..... not giving away much info here.
For what it's worth, my understanding of the "DC-short" design goal is as follows:

- If the antenna elements connected to the "centre pin" and "outer shell" terminals are completely insulated from one another (ie an open circuit for both AC and DC), then the possibility exists for one conductor - usually the non-grounded centre pin - to develop large potentials (voltages) relative to the other one, for example due to a build-up of static electricity. Since this (centre) terminal is usually connected to high-impedance input circuitry with limited voltage withstand, large potentials can arise and lead to parts of the modem's front-end circuitry breaking down.
Providing DC continuity (in some way) between the conductors prevents any significant DC potential from arising in the first place.

- If there are lightning strikes in the vicinity of the antenna, large surge potentials can be induced into one or both of the antenna conductors (more usually the non-grounded side). In a similar way to that described above, providing DC continuity between the antenna conductors can help limit the surge potential. My own view, however, is that the benefit gained from this is rather limited, ie it doesn't provide very robust protection.

- In the worst case, if there is a direct strike to the antenna itself, to the antenna mast or even just the same building, then massive surge potentials will be induced into the antenna wires. In this case, my view is that DC continuity provided by means of small-gauge internal wires, passive components or small-signal semiconductors will not help at all - the available surge energy is simply too large and will fry them. Earthing the mast will help (by providing a path for most of the surge current to flow directly to earth), but the connected equipment is still likely to be damaged.
The only thing that will help prevent this kind of damage are dedicated surge-arrestors in the antenna cable(s).

It's worth noting that DC continuity (as a means of limiting dangerous potentials) could be provided either in the antenna itself or in the connected equipment, and there are different methods of doing so. Also, commercial equipment like a "home" modem/router usually has very limited voltage withstand and does not include any specific protection devices (to minimise cost). More "industrial" devices typically have much better inherent withstand and may even include their own protective devices, like gas discharge tubes and semiconductor surge-suppression devices, like the venerable "TransZorb".

So, my own view is that while a "DC short" is desirable in an antenna, it is by no means an absolute requirement, nor a total solution, for surge protection. If the antenna you use doesn't have one, it just means that you have to worry that little bit more about providing surge protection.

I think Azimuth had a good reference somewhere on the "myth" of a "DC short" providing surge protection - hopefully he will post it here, if it's not been linked already.



Nevertheless, we are looking at the Beyondoor range of outdoor antennas a bit closer now, as this dc-short is clearly a requirement for some routers, whatever the reason.
It's good that the issue has profile now, but for reasons outlined elsewhere, I would still be wary of drawing the conclusion that this is an absolute requirement for external antenna detection (on the B593, at least). I do understand that you've done several tests with Otto's own antennas which seem to indicate otherwise.
To illustrate : I use a B593s-601 with Poynting LPDA-0020-V1 antennas, which do not have any form of DC continuity that I can detect. When my B593 is set to "Auto antenna detect", the LPDA-0020's are detected and used just fine, provided of course they are in good signal and set up right.
 
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It's good that the issue has profile now, but for reasons outlined elsewhere, I would still be wary of drawing the conclusion that this is an absolute requirement for external antenna detection (on the B593, at least). I do understand that you've done several tests with Otto's own antennas which seem to indicate otherwise.
To illustrate : I use a B593s-601 with Poynting LPDA-0020-V1 antennas, which do not have any form of DC continuity that I can detect. When my B593 is set to "Auto antenna detect", the LPDA-0020's are detected and used just fine, provided of course they are in good signal and set up right.

That's interesting. Everything we have tested on requires the DC short to be present, in order for the router to detect the antenna.

By the way, we also stock lightning protectors for antennas. Don't ask me how well they work, because people always seem to purchase them AFTER a lightning strike, and then of course, lightning never seems to strike the same place twice.
 
I think Azimuth had a good reference somewhere on the "myth" of a "DC short" providing surge protection - hopefully he will post it here, if it's not been linked already.

Here is the article I was referring to, both as a link and also attached as a PDF. ( Thanks Azimuth for providing the link again ).

The article is written very much from a "lightning" perspective and doesn't touch on the issue of static/ESD at all, but seen in the context of "big surges", the views it expresses are very valid.

All of this course, has zero bearing on the issue of whether a modem/router might make use of DC continuity to help decide whether an external antenna is connected. It is purely about the significance (or lack thereof) of the "DC short" as a means of protection against "big surges".
 

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By the way, we also stock lightning protectors for antennas. Don't ask me how well they work, because people always seem to purchase them AFTER a lightning strike, and then of course, lightning never seems to strike the same place twice.
I agree with. When people are installing ligtning protector for Telkom modem (not frequent, as usually it stays in the box), the green wire remains lose.

Please specify, what type of these devices you sell, as there are different for DC-short and different for DC-open antennas.
 
Hi guys.

Yesterday I met with a person who many considered the best antenna designer in South Africa. He is not often in the country these days, as he, like many in our brains trust, sadly left our shores and has offices in another country these days.

I asked him about the dc-short, and antenna installation in general.

The DC Short is for static discharge. it should be a 1/4 wavelength short inside the antenna. Alternately, the lightning protector should create this same dc-short, which is only necessary to use when an antenna does not already have a dc-short.

In the case of using a lightning protector, obviously you are grounding it. In the case of using a dc-shorted antenna, the ground of the antennas should be grounded against the mounting pole, and this mounting pole should then be grounded. In most cases, dc-shorted antennas ground themselves against the mounting pole. Without one of these rounds present, the DC-short, or lightning protector will not be doing its job.

He also said that if anyone is interested, (and I can see there are some members of this forum who love to experiment!), then once you have installed a dc-shorted antenna, or lightning protector, and grounded the setup, you can take a long-ish (1 metre) spike with a sharp tip, attach it to your mounting pole at the top, above the antenna, pointing skyward. During high electrical activity, you will then see the Corona Effect of the DC-Short, as it gathers and discharges static. In other words, at night you will see some pretty blue sparks at the tip of your spike....

Anyway... if anyone does this and manages to capture some images, i would love to see them. For now though, we have an amazing 13dB dc-shorted Omnidirectional antenna in stock. I am going to install 2 of these (appropriately spaced, as they will both be verticall polarised) this weekend.... One client who has tried them improved from 20Mbps to 38Mbps when these antennas were laying on their lawn....

http://www.otto.co.za/products/ante...omni-directional-lte-antenna-with-12dbi-gain/

Cheers guys, and thank you for all your contributions, some really insightful and interesting comments on this forum!
 
See this post and the few that follow for a bit of background and some links.

Also see this press announcement from 2012.

If you look carefully, you can just see the "8ta" logo on the side of the green cabinet on the left of this pic :

View attachment 134357

This particular ATC site has Telkom Mobile (8ta), CellC, MTN and Vodacom kit on it.

By the way, the link given on their notice boards is dead :D
You have to go here instead.

As it happens, many of the highsites in my area are owned/run by the SA arm of ATC (American Tower Company). On most of these sites (again, in my area), the highsite has at least three of The Big Four (Vodacom, MTN, Cell C and Telkom) on the same mast.

Usually, one can see inside the highsite enclosure and spot the various operators' logos on the equipment cabinets. However, there's one particular highsite in my area where I couldn't see inside because the equipment cabinets are behind a solid gate inside a fenced-off area :

DSC01954 (Medium).jpg

So the other day I phoned ATCSA and asked if they could tell me which operator(s) are on this mast. After a bit of to-ing and fro-ing, they did. The guy I spoke to also said something interesting, which is that Cell C is "generally" the anchor tenant on any ATC highsite. So, presumably, where you have an ATC highsite, there's a very high probability that at least Cell C are on it.
Whilst I can't say how true that is in general, it has certainly been true for most (though not all) of the ATC highsites around me.

Edit (11/2015) : On a subsequent visit, I found the Telkom guys busy doing a complete LTE re-fit and got a look inside. True enough, this ATC does indeed have CellC presence, and the other three as well, for that matter (Telkom, Vodacom, MTN).

Before the re-fit:
DSC01963 (Medium).jpg

After (OK, during!) the re-fit:
DSC02397 (Medium).jpg
Note the brand-new sector antennas and RRUs that have been fitted onto the existing brackets.

By the way, referring back to the original post above, the link given to the local (.co.za) website for ATC now works :

[url]http://www.atcsouthafrica.co.za/[/URL]
 
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I asked him about the dc-short, and antenna installation in general.

The DC Short is for static discharge. it should be a 1/4 wavelength short inside the antenna. Alternately, the lightning protector should create this same dc-short, which is only necessary to use when an antenna does not already have a dc-short.
Good finding! It matches my experience. It is why I asked which lightning protection devices you sell. If you meassure resistance on the input side, it should show 0 Ohm.

DC-short antenna still requires lightning protection device, so discussion about advantage of DC-short antennas over DC-open is just marketing trick to promote particular brand. :)

Re grounding of the mast and lightning protection devices: it is only effective if using the same ground as your surge protectors in the main outdoor electricity box. Otherwise it creates potential difference between grounds. Once it goes inside the house, it blows your equipment.
 
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I decided to add supplemental post to the above, seeing the efforts in the B593 thread to fix DC-open antenna by adding the resistor to force detection. This is not the way to do professional antenna installation.

It would be no DC-short discussion at all, if we had a single feedback from the profesional antenna installation. There is no professional antenna installators on this forum and nobody who posted in this thread has used such services.

Truth is, the lightning protector is not an option for outdoor antenna installation. Just install fuc@#% lightning protector and stop talking about advantage of DC-short antennas. You can find it from Otto Marketing:
http://www.otto.co.za/products/antennas/lightning-protectors/

Chris, please confirm that B593 you sell is able to auto-detect your LTE MIMO antenna when above lightning protector is installed.
 
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The goals of:
(1) providing surge protection, and
(2) facilitating antenna detection
are completely different.

A DC short antenna, or an antenna with some DC continuity, may help with (2).
If one is serious about surge protection, one will provide a separate solution for (1).


Chris, please confirm that B593 you sell is able to auto-detect your LTE MIMO antenna when above lightning protector is installed.
There are basically two types of antenna-line surge protectors, with quite distinctive shapes because of their different operating principles. I suspect that most commercially-available antenna surge-protection devices, like the N-type ones being offered by Otto Wireless, will contain a simple gas arrestor with a breakover voltage somewhere between 90V and 300V (lower is better, but neither is that great).
More sophisticated types may contain additional semiconductor protective devices at the expense of higher insertion loss.
In the former case (gas tube only), the protector will provide a straight-through connection on the centre pin. It will measure zero resistance between input and output sides, and a completely open circuit between centre pin and shell.
As such, it will have zero influence on the DC characteristics of the antenna and hence it won't improve (or worsen) the antenna detection issue at all.
 
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Chris, please confirm that B593 you sell is able to auto-detect your LTE MIMO antenna when above lightning protector is installed.

Hi sajunky

We have the imported lightning protector, which you noted, but are also looking at a superior product, designed in South Africa. It is not on the website yet.

I do want to check the auto-detection as you noted above, but this month is our financial year-end, so please bare with me, as I am currently up to eyeballs in our year-end, and setting budgets for the next financial year as well. To top it off we are also busy renovating our offices and have builders here as well...

I promise I will get to that test, it is definitely something which came to mind for me as well.

Keep up the great work with your awesome comments and questions, I really enjoy this forum.

Chris
 
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