Apple co-founder praises Microsoft innovation

[Space_Chief]

-PS3 and Wii were released after Xbox. I think you meant the original Playstation, in which case we'd have to go all the way back to Atari when it comes to who was first.

Yes perhaps I meant the original PlayStation, SNES, Saturn etc. MS just copied these guys.

- Apple arguably has better marketing. Why have they not been able to come up with a successful competing office suite or desktop/server OS?

They have a successful competing Office Suite, it's called iWork. Desktop/Server OS? Well for some reason most enterprises ran NT. It's not that NT was better than Unix. MS just had good marketing and was sly about what it did. But even so, maybe Apple did not care to be on every single server out there....? They still make more money than MS does. If anything it's MS which is tanking not Apple.

- So did Apple. Unless you believe that they were the first to release a portable music player or smartphone.

Sure. But for some reason Apple got it right with the iPod - iPod 3rd gen owner here, it beat the Rio and the Creative Nomad, I know I owned that one too.

 

[Space_Chief]

XBox was making a loss because they were looking for market gain. And MS Office consists of more than just Word.

1. Most people primarily use Word. Few use a Spreadsheet app, fewer even use the presentation app and even fewer use a database. But anyway there was this thing called Lotus 1-2-3 which beat Excel in the early days. Excel itself wasn't even originally an MS product.

MS had that TerraServe thing before Google Maps and they are pretty innovative for us technical folk (developers and the like).

I never said MS did not innovate at all. Gosh... did you think I said that? Come on that would be unreasonable.

 

[Mike Hoxbig]

Yes perhaps I meant the original PlayStation, SNES, Saturn etc. MS just copied these guys.

They have a successful competing Office Suite, it's called iWork. Desktop/Server OS? Well for some reason most enterprises ran NT. It's not that NT was better than Unix. MS just had good marketing and was sly about what it did. But even so, maybe Apple did not care to be on every single server out there....? They still make more money than MS does. If anything it's MS which is tanking not Apple.

Sure. But for some reason Apple got it right with the iPod - iPod 3rd gen owner here, it beat the Rio and the Creative Nomad, I know I owned that one too.

- And those guys copied everyone else, all the way back to Atari. It's a bit unfair to single MS out here.

- iWork is successful with Mac folk, but how much does that represent out of all office suite users? As mentioned before, Apple's success relies on good marketing, so their marketing is arguably better than MS's. So why haven't they captured as much of the desktop OS and office suite market as they would have liked?

- Agreed, but there's a double standard here. Getting it right doesn't apply to innovation, a point you're willing to point out against MS, but unable to see when it applies to Apple. It's not theft when it's Apple, it's "getting it right"

 

[Hamster]

Few use a Spreadsheet app

You are wrong.

 

[Space_Chief]

- And those guys copied everyone else, all the way back to Atari. It's a bit unfair to single MS out here.

It's unfair to use the XBOX as a sign of MS innovation as others were before them, and in fact Sony and Wii are more successful.

- iWork is successful with Mac folk, but how much does that represent out of all office suite users?

Well it only runs on Mac so.... obviously.

As mentioned before, Apple's success relies on good marketing, so their marketing is arguably better than MS's. So why haven't they captured as much of the desktop OS and office suite market as they would have liked?

Not just marketing. Apple has better products. You pay more but their guys really work the features in. OSX is superior to Windows, any way you look at it, from a usage point of view. It doesn't crash as much as Windows. It's cheaper than Windows. It does not need activation. It does not get any viruses and only the occasional trojan horse. It's faster. It doesn't do major interface redesigns. OSX Panther still looks like Mountain Lion, more or less. Win XP looks nothing like Win 8.

- Agreed, but there's a double standard here. Getting it right doesn't apply to innovation, a point you're willing to point out against MS, but unable to see when it applies to Apple. It's not theft when it's Apple, it's "getting it right"

Actually I am not an Apple fanboy. For some reason some people tend to think that everyone slots into the Apple fanboy or the MS fanboy category. I am a guy who prefers to use the best tool for the job. If it's a Windows machine, I'll use that. If it's a Mac, I'll use that. iPod and iPad genuinely innovated and now everyone wants to copy their success. It was not only good marketing, it was good marketing with the delivery of a well polished product which just works without the extra BS.

One thing Windows has going for it, is the sheer variety of hardware it can run on. There are some great laptop manufactures out there who deliver 800g i7 systems for example. Apple does not do that. But that's not due to Microsoft. That's due to hardware makers.



BTW I dislike MS for forcing PC makers to have to sell Windows with their machines. I also dislike the expensive prices of their software.

 

[Mike Hoxbig]

BTW I dislike MS for forcing PC makers to have to sell Windows with their machines. I also dislike the expensive prices of their software.

Agreed mostly with the rest of your points.

On this one though, why don't you dislike Apple for not allowing manufacturers to use their OS? You can hardly blame MS for this, they're basically the default choice. Manufacturers tried the OSS route, which didn't take too well in the market, and they're businesses that need to be profitable too. Using Windows allows them to be profitable.

The reason why iOS and OSx appear to work so well is because the OS is designed around a specific subset of hardware configurations.

On your point about viruses, virus authors tend to target the largest share of the market, hardly MS's fault here. It's the same issue currently affecting Android. iOS doesn't suffer from this too much because everything is so locked down, with installation being done via iTunes. So it comes down to a choice of whether you want to possibly expose yourself by having more freedom, or protect yourself by subjecting yourself to the mercy of the vendor.

 

[AlphaJohn]

2000 called, they want their argument back

Not just marketing. Apple has better products. You pay more but their guys really work the features in. OSX is superior to Windows, any way you look at it, from a usage point of view. It doesn't crash as much as Windows. It's cheaper than Windows. It does not need activation. It does not get any viruses and only the occasional trojan horse. It's faster. It doesn't do major interface redesigns. OSX Panther still looks like Mountain Lion, more or less. Win XP looks nothing like Win 8.

OS X is as cheap as a new PC. Windows 8 is more secure than the latest OS X can even dream to be. See UEFI and ASLR among others. There is a reason Mac always fall 1st at the hackfests. The virus number has only to do with people shooting a larger target.

Actually I am not an Apple fanboy. For some reason some people tend to think that everyone slots into the Apple fanboy or the MS fanboy category. I am a guy who prefers to use the best tool for the job. If it's a Windows machine, I'll use that. If it's a Mac, I'll use that. iPod and iPad genuinely innovated and now everyone wants to copy their success. It was not only good marketing, it was good marketing with the delivery of a well polished product which just works without the extra BS.

You so are a fanboy by the sound of it.

BTW I dislike MS for forcing PC makers to have to sell Windows with their machines. I also dislike the expensive prices of their software.

No one force you to buy Windows with a new PC, you can simply ask for one without the OS or simply return the sealed package to Microsoft for a rebate.

Oh and the reason why the OEM's prefer to sell you PC's with the OS installed has nothing to do with Microsoft, its because the OEM's get kickbacks from the other crap they install (Think Norton Antivirus and so on) In order to get that they need to load an OS 1st.

 

[Wall]

Forcing people to buy their apps twice (Phone and tablet have complete different markets that do not talk to each other) <--- now that is innovation big time.

:wtf: you kidding right?

 

[AlphaJohn]

:wtf: you kidding right?

I wish I was:

Phone App store: http://www.windowsphone.com/en-us/store
Tablet App Store: http://windows.microsoft.com/en-ZA/windows-8/apps

 

[Space_Chief]

Agreed mostly with the rest of your points.

On this one though, why don't you dislike Apple for not allowing manufacturers to use their OS? You can hardly blame MS for this, they're basically the default choice. Manufacturers tried the OSS route, which didn't take too well in the market, and they're businesses that need to be profitable too. Using Windows allows them to be profitable.

Because Apple is not obliged to make its OS X available to everyone, in the same way MS is not obliged to do the same. But to force the sales of generic computers to have to include a Windows OEM CD is plainly wrong and is none of MS' business. Maybe I want to put Linux or DR-DOS or FREE DOS on my PC. Apple sells its OSX with its hardware, MS only sells (until the Surface and XBOX) operating systems. But there is no licensing reason why IBM compatible hardware has to include the Microsoft tax. Right?

The reason why iOS and OSx appear to work so well is because the OS is designed around a specific subset of hardware configurations.

Yes but the reason why OSX works so well is irrelevant. MS could do what Apple does to and make its own PCs with perfectly tailor made hardware/software.

On your point about viruses, virus authors tend to target the largest share of the market, hardly MS's fault here. It's the same issue currently affecting Android. iOS doesn't suffer from this too much because everything is so locked down, with installation being done via iTunes. So it comes down to a choice of whether you want to possibly expose yourself by having more freedom, or protect yourself by subjecting yourself to the mercy of the vendor.

An iPad gives plenty of freedom. I can watch any MKV H.264 or AVI encoded movie. I can listen to any MP3 song. I can visit any website short of ones with Flash although there is a $5 browser which allows flash by streaming the session to your iPad/iPhone.

A Mac is plenty free btw. You can install Windows in bootcamp or use virtualisation software. And MS will get paid when you buy a copy of Windows.

Contrast this to how Apple has been pushing for DRM free music and how MS was so heavily invested in DRM in its WMA and PlayForSure formats.

 

[Space_Chief]

2000 called, they want their argument back

Arguments have expiry dates? We're talking about who is the innovator here. MS messed up badly. BTW Windows is still sold with new PCs and good luck with claiming you have a Windows 7 retail disk and you want to claim the money for that OEM license. Do you think its an easy process? Hmmm?

Besides many people (here) seem to worship MS based on its presence. But how did MS get to be so ubiquitous? Well not all of it was through great software. Some of it was through these forced sales of Windows with every computer including generic computers. MS also stabbed IBM in the back during the OS/2 development. OS/2 was a much better OS than Windows 16 or 32 (9x).

OS X is as cheap as a new PC. Windows 8 is more secure than the latest OS X can even dream to be. See UEFI and ASLR among others. There is a reason Mac always fall 1st at the hackfests. The virus number has only to do with people shooting a larger target.

Maybe in hackfests but in real life, no.

You so are a fanboy by the sound of it.

What your gut tells you subjectively is entirely irrelevant.

No one force you to buy Windows with a new PC, you can simply ask for one without the OS or simply return the sealed package to Microsoft for a rebate.

Riiiiight. And when the salesman looks at you cluelessly.... and how do you return it? Do you have to mail it back and pay money and when will you get your cash back? Come on.

Oh and the reason why the OEM's prefer to sell you PC's with the OS installed has nothing to do with Microsoft, its because the OEM's get kickbacks from the other crap they install (Think Norton Antivirus and so on) In order to get that they need to load an OS 1st.

It had or has to do with preferential Windows pricing they get from MS. The bloatware is another issue. Business machines from more premium makers don't include bloatware at all BTW. Low end consumer PCs do.

 

[Space_Chief]

Agreed mostly with the rest of your points.

BTW I apologise if I ever sound rude. I don't mean any of that. You're a swell guy with great arguments.



Apple has a lot of bad going for it. Take its racist approach to setting up presence in South Africa. Macbooks are Aluminum and they're mostly all very heavy. Terrible as portable computers. The Macbook Air is not very ruggedised. Removal of the Ethernet port on the Retina MBP and removal of the Express Card PCI slot on earlier MBPs was also stupid. The change in the new dock connector is also crazy. There is lots of stupidity from Apple.

 

[FlatspinZA]

Because Apple is not obliged to make its OS X available to everyone, in the same way MS is not obliged to do the same. But to force the sales of generic computers to have to include a Windows OEM CD is plainly wrong and is none of MS' business. Maybe I want to put Linux or DR-DOS or FREE DOS on my PC. Apple sells its OSX with its hardware, MS only sells (until the Surface and XBOX) operating systems. But there is no licensing reason why IBM compatible hardware has to include the Microsoft tax. Right?

Yes but the reason why OSX works so well is irrelevant. MS could do what Apple does to and make its own PCs with perfectly tailor made hardware/software.

An iPad gives plenty of freedom. I can watch any MKV H.264 or AVI encoded movie. I can listen to any MP3 song. I can visit any website short of ones with Flash although there is a $5 browser which allows flash by streaming the session to your iPad/iPhone.

A Mac is plenty free btw. You can install Windows in bootcamp or use virtualisation software. And MS will get paid when you buy a copy of Windows.

Contrast this to how Apple has been pushing for DRM free music and how MS was so heavily invested in DRM in its WMA and PlayForSure formats.

1. Nobody is forcing you to buy a 'generic' computer with Windows on it, and nobody is forcing me, as a retailer/builder to supply Windows with a new PC.
2. Heard of codecs - you get them for every platform, allowing anyone to watch any movie on any platform?

Arguments have expiry dates? We're talking about who is the innovator here. MS messed up badly. BTW Windows is still sold with new PCs and good luck with claiming you have a Windows 7 retail disk and you want to claim the money for that OEM license. Do you think its an easy process? Hmmm?

Besides many people (here) seem to worship MS based on its presence. But how did MS get to be so ubiquitous? Well not all of it was through great software. Some of it was through these forced sales of Windows with every computer including generic computers. MS also stabbed IBM in the back during the OS/2 development. OS/2 was a much better OS than Windows 16 or 32 (9x).

Maybe in hackfests but in real life, no.

What your gut tells you subjectively is entirely irrelevant.

Riiiiight. And when the salesman looks at you cluelessly.... and how do you return it? Do you have to mail it back and pay money and when will you get your cash back? Come on.

It had or has to do with preferential Windows pricing they get from MS. The bloatware is another issue. Business machines from more premium makers don't include bloatware at all BTW. Low end consumer PCs do.

That is exactly why it's better to buy your hardware from a place unlike IC, Game, or Dion-Wired. Those computers they supply have had their OS's sold to OEM's at a huge discount - their BIOS chips have a special register that allows for offline activation, to make the end-user experience seamless.

If you don't want Windows bundled with your PC, don't buy an OEM PC, get a clone.

 

[Space_Chief]

1. Nobody is forcing you to buy a 'generic' computer with Windows on it, and nobody is forcing me, as a retailer/builder to supply Windows with a new PC.

That may very well be now, but in the past it was not the case. BTW go into Incredible Connection, look at the OS running on all those non-Mac computers.... well is it Linux or similar? Are they sold without an OS?

2. Heard of codecs - you get them for every platform, allowing anyone to watch any movie on any platform?

Well you're a little mixed up. Someone said iPad was not free, I then demonstrated how using approved Apple apps I can watch non-Apple non-iTunes content on an iPad. Yes I can even watch movies from torrentz. How's that for free? BTW while codecs exist for anything, Apple could have banned or avoided approving certain apps which use those codecs one can watch torrented or self ripped or self recorded files. Then iPad would not have been free.

That is exactly why it's better to buy your hardware from a place unlike IC, Game, or Dion-Wired. Those computers they supply have had their OS's sold to OEM's at a huge discount - their BIOS chips have a special register that allows for offline activation, to make the end-user experience seamless.

But why must it be Windows? And what about my retail XP, Windows 7 and other DVDs? Must I pay again? Or what if I want to run BSD on it?

If you don't want Windows bundled with your PC, don't buy an OEM PC, get a clone.

That's immoral. Anyway that's just the reason why I think MS sucks. There is no reason why I should have to buy Windows with a PC, but I am forced to do that. MS is still a player in the non-Mac PC market because they force-bundle their stuff with new machines. They're like a parasite one can't get rid off and despite having retail versions of their OS or not wishing to run their stuff, one has to buy their stuff again and again. Well that sucks.

BTW do you know of any generic laptop manufacturers?