Average Salary - Junior Developer

[zippy]

9 years ago I was earning more than that and it was in a call center. Move now also I've been sitting for the last 9 years here, loyalty actually sucks as you generally get a cost of living increase.

I had the opposite experience. I worked for 11 years at a large corporate in SA. I got very good increases. I couldn't move without taking a hit. I could only get an increase by leaving SA and joining the London office of a large US IT consultancy.

I ended up leaving them and taking a dip in salary for a much more enjoyable job on the Kent coast.

 

[^^vampire^^]

This is the worst advice you can give anyone. When I get a CV on my desk where a guy has jumped around like that, it goes directly to the bin. You will soon find that your possible earnings will hit a plateau. Trust me loyalty does pay, but it takes time.

Also, be picky when selecting a new company to work for. Don't just move for money, be strategic. I have moved for less money, and it paid off! Don't be afraid to say no. I have declined a lot of jobs for a lot more money because I couldn't see myself working there for a long time or it didn't fit my career aspirations. Remember, you are your own brand, and believe it or not, the industry is small. Over time, you will soon run into ex colleagues and bosses.

Actually it's not, if you bothered to read. I'm currently looking for a company I can call home now that I'm on the upper end of the scale. Yes I've hit the plateau as you say and now will find a company to stay at that will allow my salary to increase via performance and bonuses.

If my CV goes straight into the bin where you work then good, because it's clearly a company that isn't interested in people who can think objectively or have goals and set out to achieve them. People like you make a point of hiring people who clearly can't stand up for themselves instead of those who strive to make sure they get what they work hard for in life.

Do you think people would employ me each time if I couldn't do the work or contribute positively to their company? If I couldn't I wouldn't have been able to hit the plateau so soon wouldn't you say? It must be nice be able to underpay you developers - you should be proud no doubt since you have taken the first opportunity to boast about it (unless I read you wrong and are for some reason giving your developers 25-50% increases each year).

Generally I leave a company once I've completed a big project for them and ironed out the issues. I would feel guilty for straight up leaving in the middle of something. Also my moving around is because I have never worked for a place that has given performance bonuses or has any kind of review process that awards more than an 8% increase yearly. Call me the fool if you will but I'd rather have a pile of cash and plateau early and work out new opportunities rather than sit in my chair at work and dream of what it would be like to earn more than R10k a month. But circumstance doesn't matter to those on their high horse.

 

[cguy]

I think that oomjan does have a point. Moving jobs every 1-1.5 years is a big turnoff for a well managed company. It's what I would call a local optimization: you push up your income as you go, but you will likely end up working for poorly run companies, and miss out on big opportunities. Have you considered that the fact that you say you have never seen more than an 8% increase is actually partially a result of this strategy (by selecting for companies that disregard job hopping) and not a cause?

 

[froot]

@OP - move now. I've spent the 7 years of my working life moving every 1-1.5 years and I earn decently now. I want to make one more move so I can get to a really good salary then I'm going to stick it out properly for a while.

That's really horrible advice.
If I look at someone's CV and see that they change jobs every year, I won't consider them - why? Because it costs money to train up someone for a job, it takes time before they prove profitable for the company and if you move it ends up costing the company money instead of having them make money out of the position, which is what the point is.

 

[krycor]

It is a difficult balance to strike. I think an average of 2-3 years per company shows that you lasted long enough that you weren't rubbish and contributed to the company.

Pretty much the norm in IT is:
0-2 yrs - lower level chopping and changing or culture/general mismatch
2-3 yrs - pretty much the norm, usually where policy changes annoy people, growth/direction changes, slight direction change in career
3-5 yrs - Boredom, growth change, role change, where people leave to do something else on a higher level
5-7 yrs - spin off their own thing, management jump/change in career

Exception is lately people prefer to be speciality devs and remain as senior or architect/core people for longer. This wasn't always the case a few years back but times be changing and quality devs don't grow on trees so this happens a lot these days across speciality fields in SA btw(eng, it).


Personally I hate that industry, particularly SA is geared towards the 0-2yr hop for the 1st 1/2 decade give or take and most recruiting people will see it as the norm until you in industry for about 5-7 yrs.. By then u need to have been in a company for at least 3+ years minimum or else are considered a hopper/unstable person (then you better off being in a consultant assuming you amassed sufficient experience in a sector e.g. Finance, telecoms, defense etc yes I know IT is IT but really it isn't).

For me it's tough as I've been changing industry & job function continually but what I found interesting the other day was this.. I started off with a 8k salary and despite being unemployed (with trade & industry restraints) for 6-8 months.. If I calculated annual increase at 11% per anum for the period I still work out to be in a lot better position than I would be. If I take into account position I was barred from getting I'm on par. (Not accounting for accrued values)

So that kinda gives me hope, still long way to go vs age and graduating date (find a job as a grad in cpt with 0 exp during recession. 1.5 yrs of life gone)

 

[^^vampire^^]

I think that oomjan does have a point. Moving jobs every 1-1.5 years is a big turnoff for a well managed company. It's what I would call a local optimization: you push up your income as you go, but you will likely end up working for poorly run companies, and miss out on big opportunities. Have you considered that the fact that you say you have never seen more than an 8% increase is actually partially a result of this strategy (by selecting for companies that disregard job hopping) and not a cause?

This was purely based on company policies or companies only doing inflation linked raises across the board.

Unfortunately there are very few companies that have invested in working out processes to test prospective employees correctly so that they can offer them a fair wage. I would be against perceived job hopping if a company was willing to offer a fair wage but 99 times out of 100 it's a little bit on top of what you are currently getting.

You can say what you like about job hopping but I have the skills and experience to get jobs even with my job hopping on my CV because I refuse to be earning R25k a month after 7 years of development experience. I've always been honest about my aspirations with employers and they are always supportive and happy that I have been able to contribute positively to their companies while I was employed as well as the fact that I was honest about it in the first place so they knew where they stood.

 

[^^vampire^^]

That's really horrible advice.
If I look at someone's CV and see that they change jobs every year, I won't consider them - why? Because it costs money to train up someone for a job, it takes time before they prove profitable for the company and if you move it ends up costing the company money instead of having them make money out of the position, which is what the point is.

If it takes you longer than 3 months to come up to speed with what's happening in a company and cannot positively contribute after that then software development is not for that person - and I would say that's an extreme timeframe. I've worked for huge corporates and have generally started contributing after 1-2 weeks to their corporate systems. You're probably hiring very sub par developers if you are having such problems. I would recommend you review your prospective employee testing processes and procedures.

 

[semaphore]

If it takes you longer than 3 months to come up to speed with what's happening in a company and cannot positively contribute after that then software development is not for that person - and I would say that's an extreme timeframe. I've worked for huge corporates and have generally started contributing after 1-2 weeks to their corporate systems. You're probably hiring very sub par developers if you are having such problems. I would recommend you review your prospective employee testing processes and procedures.

Bull****, I can guarantee you that you would not be able to contribute to my previous companies corporate systems or current in that time frame, purely from a business understanding you would have not even scratched the surface. So don't be so pompous.

 

[ToxicBunny]

If it takes you longer than 3 months to come up to speed with what's happening in a company and cannot positively contribute after that then software development is not for that person - and I would say that's an extreme timeframe. I've worked for huge corporates and have generally started contributing after 1-2 weeks to their corporate systems. You're probably hiring very sub par developers if you are having such problems. I would recommend you review your prospective employee testing processes and procedures.

Try again,

6 months minimum before any of your code would be accepted into production... and even then only after a MASSIVE code review phase.

 

[semaphore]

Try again,

6 months minimum before any of your code would be accepted into production... and even then only after a MASSIVE code review phase.

I had to write new core functionality for our system after being there for one week The amount of stress that ensued was out of this world, especially considering its a business domain I am very unfamiliar with.

 

[ToxicBunny]

I had to write new core functionality for our system after being there for one week The amount of stress that ensued was out of this world, especially considering its a business domain I am very unfamiliar with.

I've seen it happen many times... and I do not agree with it in the slightest.

The person may be a brilliant coder, but if they don't understand the business domain and rules then their code WILL be rubbish as they will miss nuances.

In saying that though, I have no issue with giving small stuff to new starts, and it can be packaged into a larger update that is run by a more senior staff member, who can just review the code and see that it meets requirements and standards.

 

[semaphore]

I've seen it happen many times... and I do not agree with it in the slightest.

The person may be a brilliant coder, but if they don't understand the business domain and rules then their code WILL be rubbish as they will miss nuances.

In saying that though, I have no issue with giving small stuff to new starts, and it can be packaged into a larger update that is run by a more senior staff member, who can just review the code and see that it meets requirements and standards.

Well thats pretty much what happened, it went to the director for review and he made me rewrite portions of it. My logic was sound, just not the style they wanted (ruby) I am weening myself off the C# styles.

 

[cguy]

If it takes you longer than 3 months to come up to speed with what's happening in a company and cannot positively contribute after that then software development is not for that person - and I would say that's an extreme timeframe. I've worked for huge corporates and have generally started contributing after 1-2 weeks to their corporate systems. You're probably hiring very sub par developers if you are having such problems. I would recommend you review your prospective employee testing processes and procedures.

It took me 9 months before I was up to speed at my last company (much faster than most). The more innovative the company is, the less likely they are to be using standard tools and software/hardware stacks, requiring their developers to begin a very long and steep learning curve. Once again you are exhibiting a certain type of selection bias based on your skill set and experience, which although it may work for you, is probably not optimal.

 

[cguy]

This was purely based on company policies or companies only doing inflation linked raises across the board.

Unfortunately there are very few companies that have invested in working out processes to test prospective employees correctly so that they can offer them a fair wage. I would be against perceived job hopping if a company was willing to offer a fair wage but 99 times out of 100 it's a little bit on top of what you are currently getting.

You can say what you like about job hopping but I have the skills and experience to get jobs even with my job hopping on my CV because I refuse to be earning R25k a month after 7 years of development experience. I've always been honest about my aspirations with employers and they are always supportive and happy that I have been able to contribute positively to their companies while I was employed as well as the fact that I was honest about it in the first place so they knew where they stood.

If you move shortly after you join, obviously you would only do it for higher pay, so it looks and feels like it is working for you. However, I strongly suspect that the better companies (the ones that do have a process to reward good employees), won't touch you with a 10 foot barge pole, so this cycle becomes self fulfilling. You have missed the experience and career boosting effect of becoming indispensable to a company that knows how to retain its good employees. In my experience, this is the only way to break into the 100k+/m range in SA or the $300k+/y range in the US. Aspiring to beat R25k/m after 7 years is a bit meh.

 

[cguy]

To combine the "job hopping" and "ramp up" sub-threads, I expect that you are getting these low ramp up positions precisely because you are a job hopper. These positions have low comp growth because you can be easily replaced. You can be easily replaced because these jobs require short ramp up times.

 

[Kilgore_Trout_Redux]

Try again,

6 months minimum before any of your code would be accepted into production...

That sounds like an absolutely terrible environment in which to work. I cannot even begin to envisage the bureaucratic nightmare that comes up with a policy of that nature. No code into production for six months? That would be a 4 month stay at a company on my CV right there.

With the correct support network a good developer should be contributing positively within the first month (And even veterans with 10 years at a company should be getting their code peer reviewed.)

The only thing is that specifications and requirements for new hires should be a lot more detailed to make up for a lack of business knowledge.

 

[ToxicBunny]

That sounds like an absolutely terrible environment in which to work. I cannot even begin to envisage the bureaucratic nightmare that comes up with a policy of that nature. No code into production for six months? That would be a 4 month stay at a company on my CV right there.

With the correct support network a good developer should be contributing positively within the first month (And even veterans with 10 years at a company should be getting their code peer reviewed.)

The only thing is that specifications and requirements for new hires should be a lot more detailed to make up for a lack of business knowledge.

You may not like the idea, you may leave, but at the end of the day, the bottom line is more important than you are, and the business logic is considerably more complicated than you can begin to understand inside of 6 months, and it needs to be protected.

This is the way many large corporates are going with their revenue generating code base. Internal systems are a different story altogether though.

 

[Kilgore_Trout_Redux]

You may not like the idea, you may leave, but at the end of the day, the bottom line is more important than you are, and the business logic is considerably more complicated than you can begin to understand inside of 6 months, and it needs to be protected.

This is the way many large corporates are going with their revenue generating code base. Internal systems are a different story altogether though.

Don't kid yourself that it is becoming in any way standard practice. It makes absolutely no sense to throw away R250,000+ with an arbitrary restriction like that. That is just wasteful and inefficient not to mention demotivating and frustrating for good, developers with a solid work ethic who want to work and contribute. I can think of lazy incompetent developers who would love that system though. But hey, if those are the develpers you want to attract and keep then good for you.

Most people also learn by being exposed to small areas of business logic at a time and gradually increasing their knowledge base as they work on more and more of the system. Yeah, give the new guy small UI changes in the first week or two and gradually ramp up while watching them like a hawk and spoon feed them knowledge but don't make them feel useless for half a year.


You don't just know nothing for six months then suddenly you magically know enough to contribute. It is mind bogglingly absurd.

 

[semaphore]

Don't kid yourself that it is becoming in any way standard practice. It makes absolutely no sense to throw away R250,000+ with an arbitrary restriction like that. That is just wasteful and inefficient not to mention demotivating and frustrating for good, developers with a solid work ethic who want to work and contribute. I can think of lazy incompetent developers who would love that system though. But hey, if those are the develpers you want to attract and keep then good for you.

Most people also learn by being exposed to small areas of business logic at a time and gradually increasing their knowledge base as they work on more and more of the system. Yeah, give the new guy small UI changes in the first week or two and gradually ramp up while watching them like a hawk and spoon feed them knowledge but don't make them feel useless for half a year.


You don't just know nothing for six months then suddenly you magically know enough to contribute. It is mind bogglingly absurd.

Its mind boggling absurd in your company or sector, but not every sector is the same.

 

[ToxicBunny]

Its mind boggling absurd in your company or sector, but not every sector is the same.

Pretty much this ultimately.

And no, Kilgore, I am not saying you know nothing for 6 months and then bang you know enough to contribute. General rule of thumb for massively complicated revenue generating systems is that it takes the average developer 6 months to get up to speed with the massively nuanced business logic required. Any code produced during that 6 month period either isn't for revenue generating systems, or is checked and checked and checked. You may find it massively inefficient, but rather have a developer not be allowed to roll out code into production instead of having a new guy roll something out that completely rogers your revenue stream for even 20 minutes.