Bandwidth theft

Sigh... Telkom are making such an obscene profit from ADSL there is no way that some people's "abuse" (as defined by Telkom, lets take 128kbps streaming web radio as an example) cuts into their profits in ANY way. They're laughing all the way to the bank.

Do you SERIOUSLY believe you pay high prices because of the so-called abuse of other adsl users? Do you honestly believe ANYTHING that gets spat out by Telkom's PR department?!

I think peoples ignorance (no offence, but thats about the only way I can describe it) is the only reason Telkom gets away with so much crap.
 
Turtle said:
Obelix, maybe you should wait and see what Telkom plans to charge for 1GB before jumping to conclusions - it will probably be expensive. Let's look at this logically for a moment: would Telkom be implementing this if it is going to save users money, on the whole? I think I'll die laughing.

A close friend has the details all in black and white, and while there will be no per GB charges yet, there will be more package sizes to choose form. Wheather its cheaper or more expensive depends on the package youre on now and what you take. When i see it myself i'll make up my OWN mind on wheather i like it or not.
 
ettubrute said:
I thought Telkom "owned" it, so are they then charging themselves for using it? Sounds unlikely...

Anyway, if there is some other owner of the cable, what does Telkom then pay per Meg/Gig? Looking at the "normal" trend of the srewing business policy used in SA, it will be a very small price, and then marked-up 1000%!
They dont own the sat 3 cable only a portion of it. They do own the landing point afaik. Weather they owned the line or not, it still has to be hooked up to another provider at the other end and thats where they get charged.
 
Last edited:
Obelix said:
it still has to be hooked up to another provider at the other end and thats where they get charged.
And read what Clipse says they get charged and the check the math...

hand more more Vaseline please
 
When telkom invested in the sat-3 cable they only had to pay $60m, do you think they have paid that off yet?
 
Clipse has a valid point. but i still think useing pay-per-gig will work out better, its just the prices that need to come down
 
Telkom is treating this as through there are a vast array of variable costs associated with it.

The fact of the matter is that weather I use 1 meg or 1 gig, telkom pays the same to maintain all the equipment required to make the connection possible.

Going back to the ORIGINAL post. It is more like paying a prostitute for sex and then having her tell you how SHE likes it. Prostitues like that belong in hillbrow and point road.

Dixi
 
Can't really comment on the prostitute perspective ?!? :P

While I sort of, think, I might, get where you're coming from (definitely don't want to go there though ;) ), remember ZA doen't have access to the unlimited bandwidth that Europe and the US have. At reasonable costs, we'd also have a lot more users than countries like Sri Lanka, New Zealand or Lebanon, so we will have to deal with contention.

I'd love an unlimited cap, but I accept that it may just not be pheasible. (Even Australia's "unlimited" has limits, you're throttled after 30Gb)
 
Hi, dot

a "troll" is someone who posts a contraversial message to the message board with the express purpose of starting a flame war.

I'm a troll myself. I just call "flame wars" healthy debates, and I believe they're the only way we grow intellectually. If people are going to take offence at that and get personal, it's their problem. Troll away :-)

I had the same question as wiseass about the new per gig billing structure (I think, if I understand his point correctly). Still do, to a degree. For my family, who seldom uses more than 4 gigs of bandwidth a month, it might even work out cheaper. I also couldn't care less about the people who want to spend hours and hours downloading music and playing online games, and I also lean toward thinking that's abuse... BUT what about the SMME's?? Just e-mail, business related web usage, and hits to their own internet servers, they're maybe using 15gigs a month. Online businesses will use even more. Many of those businesses WILL HAVE TO FOLD if per gig becomes a reality at the prices that are being suggested!

There's also the argument that other countries get much more, for much less. You seem to think we're trying to compare ourselves with first world countries. We all realise it would be folly to do this, and we're not trying. How about Sri Lanka and India, to name just two that we have been officially compared to? These countries get 50 to 100 times what we're getting for 50% to 70% less cost. THAT is why we're saying there's something seriously wrong!!

Please correct me if I got any of the facts wrong, guys...

Cheers
Nocturne
 
How's this for a spin on the per-gig/cap issue.

One of the big gripes that I've seen brought up here is the mass download towards the end of the month as users realise they have spare "credit" and want to use it up, mainly because they are paying so much for it anyway. This tends to cause general degradation of service in the vicinity of those users, as anyone who knows anything about IP and network theory would likely expect.

The whole idea behind contention ratios is that it assumes a particular type of (relatively) random distribution of data traffic from a selection of users, resulting in what's known as statistical multiplexing. The problem is that the models assume unlimited use, not in terms of downloading at full line speed 100% of the time, but rather that they don't place any artificial restrictions on how much data can be associated with a single user. They just assume that data will flow back and forth in a random fashion, in line with the relatively random nature of human behaviour.

By introducing the cap Telkom basically shot themselves in the foot. Because of the cap, close to the end of the month ppl with a large amount of "credit" left are known to start mass downloads, in line with the thought of getting what they paid for, which I feel is justified given how much is being paid. This aspect of human behaviour completely blows any statistical multiplexing gain out the window, causing the degradation. They are not abusers, they simply want to get what they paid for, and have the comsumer right to do so.

There are a few solutions to this:
1) Remove the cap completely. Yes, there will be those who go crazy with their new found freedom, much like the stereotypical 18yo's who can now legally drink and end up in a stupor night after night. But much like those 18yo's once they've had their bout of fun they will get bored of the novelty and calm down. A small percentage might somehow get too addicted and consume copious amounts of bandwidth continuously, but there are other ways of dealing with those, and as said, they'd be a small percentage.

2) Charge reasonable prices for a capped service. If the prices were reasonable, people would be far less likely to "abuse" the service, as the amount lost due to not getting what they paid for, would not be significant. Basically, if Telkom treated us fairly and with respect, we would mostly do the same. Yes there will again be some who insist on getting every cent out of their connection, but again, they are likely to be the minority.

3) This is what I've been thinking of recently; a combination of the two. Since its the international bandwidth that Telkom always jump up and down about, why not have completely uncapped local bandwidth for a fixed, reasonable, amount per month, with all international traffic being on a per-gig based payment mechanism, but again at a reasonable amount. The local infrastructure should be able to handle it. And removing explicit caps means that people will have a more uniform traffic pattern, not resulting in a huge burst of activity towards the end of the month. At the very least it would also make traffic patterns easier to predict and _real_ hotspots easier to identify thereby allowing more effective network management, which would in turn result in lower overheads.

I'm not going to try to propose exactly what would be a "fair" price for any of the services I mentioned, There are plenty of other people on these forums who have a better grapple on the financial side of things than I do at the moment. All that can be said by anyone is that the costs at the moment are not fair, or any other adjective with similar meaning.

Just my thoughts :)

... heh.. sorry it's quite long, just copied it into notepad now to read it through more easliy. This little message box is deceptive!
 
I had a lot of reading up to do…between that and my day job (the place the big people go to earn money in a world where business rules), it’s been a while since my last posting.

Some good ideas were thrown around!

Hellburn….I bet you are also involved in some sort of business, since it seems like you are one of the few around here that thinks of the business that needs to keep running, and yes, make money so they can invest in new ideas…..good for you Hellburn!

I especially like your 3rd proposal….one of the better ones around here. One problem though: I’ll explain after this quick bit.

I quick explanation for all the others that still do not understand the intend of a cap (even with all the negatives it brings) or pay per use:
512kbps always on unlimited will be way to expensive to sell as a product with a 1:1 contention ratio….so what Telkom does (like every one all over the world) is to introduce a contention ratio. Totally fictional, lets asume1:10….that means 10 * 512kbps users are sharing 1 * 512kbps backhaul and international connection. Now how will Telkom be able to convince its users that they should “try and not use” the full speed (512) 24 hours a day? It will be an impossible task for people to manage themselves. The alternative is (in this total fictional example) for Telkom to give each of those 10 users just 512/10=51.2kbps and allow them to use as much as they like…..this way every one will be compromised with a much inferior service just because some users were unable to limit themselves. What Telkom did was to allow multiple users “club” together for that 512kbps backhaul and share it on a time basis. Without some sort of usage limitation implemented, everyone will be back to 51.2.

The choices for limiting the SHARED use of the COMMON resource are either by time or by packet. The choice of going for packet is much better than time (according to me) and has absolutely no relation to what the wireless guys are doing (mando).

HENCE: x-gig cap per month. I agree that the monthly expiration of your x-gig is causing degradation of service towards the end of the month (and also agree that something needs to be done to resolve this…maybe credit transfer to the next month…hint,hint to any Telkom employees), but if no cap were in place this surely is a better reflection of what the service would have been the whole month long if no cap was used.

Hellburn, back to your proposal 3. I like the principal, but Telkom will use the excuse that they need to still provide national interconnections (backhaul) for the local traffic, and therefore cannot make national traffic for free. Someone needs to maintain those national routes and also make money from them to be able to upgrade them in the future (or do we all still want 512kbps in 10 years time). This maintenance can be seen in the same light as paying for international bandwidth, although just way cheaper, but again having no cap in place will take us all back to the mentioned 51.2 kbps scenario.

Just a thought for closing: Did you guys know that a basic small GSM (cellphone) network can easily cost you about R50mil……it will take a lot of convincing to start donations to put up our own network with free use (I am referring to the free proxy/sock treat which I support 100%). When a “Business” like Vodacom, which has access to funding and investors (because they know they will get there money back based on the track record of the business) build a network, the per-port cost can easily be below R100 per port. Now why are we all buying our (capital) ports over and over every month?
 
dot said:
Now why are we all buying our (capital) ports over and over every month?
Thats what I think everyone wants to know!!!!

Out of intrests sake.. look at this example " http://www.telecomsportal.com/Assets_papers/LLU/Net_to_Net_DSLbizcase.pdf " of how quickly a company can make its money back, granted this is for a CLEC (which is not allowed in SA) and not the costs involved for Telkom,and its also a few years old.

But since Telkom already own half of those things on that list required, you can cut half of those costs down by at least a 1/3rd. SO... its even quicker for them,
 
Top
Sign up to the MyBroadband newsletter
X