Be gentle.: Reality Check

syntaX1 · Jul 27, 2003

I'm pretty sure that if ADSL were priced more competitively, hmm.. reasonably, the takeup would be far greater. I realize that bandwidth is a problem, but it takes money to make money, and the investment in additional international bandwidth (if even required) could solve that problem. I'm sure that Telkom is making money off us, so I'm certain it's not that they are short on capital to make this investment.

mithrandi · Jul 27, 2003

odge:
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Imagine this... You have ISDN dial-up and you are connected all day and all night... work it out... it would cost you more than R 5500 a month... pretty hectic.

Then think of the same solution for 64k diginet, R6000 a month. For 512k diginet - R 30'000 a month. Think of the fact that with a 64k diginet line you can only download (at 8k/sec for 30 days) 20GB.

Hmmm, now think for ADSL, 20GB would only cost you R650 + 80 (line rental) + 220 x 7 (3GB * 7 = 21GB) = a mere R 2270. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Both ISDN dial-up and 64K diginet are far superior to ADSL in terms of performance. As far as I can tell, I'm unable to pull more than 10KB/sec from anywhere that isn't on SAIX's network - and there's practically nothing of use on there...

I'm unqualified to comment on the realism of your figures; it's really rather irrelevant to my standpoint. For example, you mention Telkom having to link every area of South Africa - that wouldn't be the case if the government and co. would !@#$ off and stop interfering in what ought to be free market capitalism. If your figures are correct, then any competition to Telkom would have to provide their services at a similar price; but how can you tell? We currently have a conspicuous lack of any competition, and the current route we're following towards an SNO just leaves me wanting to throw up.

I tend to bitch and moan about Telkom, but really, there would be nothing to complain about if it weren't for external interference with normal economics. I will also admit that Telkom have improved quite a bit in certain areas (like service), at least in my experience.

Karnaugh:
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">BECAUSE !!!!!

HTTP traffic is prioritised to allow the rest of us a decent web browsing experience so we dont have to wait while you download your stupid mp3's.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That's just plain daft. I can download MP3s via HTTP just as easily as I can "browse the web" via means other than HTTP. Peer-to-peer networks are far more efficient (looking at the network as a whole) than "standard HTTP" under a variety of circumstances; this hasn't been exploited much, as yet, but "prioritizing" HTTP traffic isn't going to help matters any. Also, I'd like to note that the only reason HTTP seems to be "prioritized" is that it gets transparently proxied by SAIX.

mithrandi

Revix · Jul 27, 2003

Ok, some info for the sake of me paying too much for ADSL and getting a 3GIG cap [

!]

I logged onto IRC as a test
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">> Created on Saturday, July 26th, 2003 at 6:07am<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">[6:08am] <Revix> Network Interfaces: (#1 (VIA Rhine II Compatible Fast Ethernet Adapter (100Mb/s) 606.75MB In, 132.94MB Out) #2(WAN (PPP/SLIP) Interface (512Kb/s) 0.03MB In, 0.01MB Out))<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Now that is fine, logging onto IRC takes 0.03MB, but, now i stay on for 5 minutes, come to this forum, get to the "reply to post" button and get this :

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">[6:13am] <Revix> Network Interfaces: (#1 (VIA Rhine II Compatible Fast Ethernet Adapter (100Mb/s) 607.30MB In, 132.94MB Out) #2(WAN (PPP/SLIP) Interface (512Kb/s) 0.57MB In, 0.09MB Out))<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That is 570KB of data, yes, 570KB!! JUST for loggin onto this website.

Now i goto www.nvidia.com
Oh lookie here ->
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">[6:15am] <Revix> Network Interfaces: (#1 (VIA Rhine II Compatible Fast Ethernet Adapter (100Mb/s) 608.07MB In, 132.94MB Out) #2(WAN (PPP/SLIP) Interface (512Kb/s) 1.33MB In, 0.16MB Out))<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes fellow friends, 1.33MB! from just 2 websites.....
I myself have 2 computers, and i browse and do lots of research, and i do programming so i read alot and look for programming websites...
Now you tell me 3gig is enough...

Then one more test...

i goto www.greataupair.com (for my g/f to get her some info)
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">[6:17am] <Revix> Network Interfaces: (#1 (VIA Rhine II Compatible Fast Ethernet Adapter (100Mb/s) 609.11MB In, 132.94MB Out) #2(WAN (PPP/SLIP) Interface (512Kb/s) 2.35MB In, 0.39MB Out))<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

yes, 2.35MB!

....This speaks for itself...Do the Math...2997.65MB left and 2.35MB used in less than 10 minutes and 3 websites!

...enough said...

Quick Update...Editing this Reply..

Update

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">[7:16am] <Revix> Network Interfaces: (#1 (VIA Rhine II Compatible Fast Ethernet Adapter (100Mb/s) 611.37MB In, 132.94MB Out) #2(WAN (PPP/SLIP) Interface (512Kb/s) 4.55MB In, 0.86MB Out))<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hey you check that? 4.55MB basically just checking this forum out...interesting eh? (it all adds up)

=TT=

syntaX1 · Jul 27, 2003

Hey Revix,

Here's a site I browse daily, you should go and see it. It's www.deviantart.com. [

]

Oh, btw, you may not want to check your stats after you visit it...

Revix · Jul 27, 2003

Ok syntax,
That is the last time i follow a link from you...
after browsing that site, checking out a few pictures of that...(very nice site, i bookmarked it, however i'll have to browse it @ my friend's house coz the cap is too small)

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">[7:31am] <Revix> Network Interfaces: (#1 (VIA Rhine II Compatible Fast Ethernet Adapter (100Mb/s) 646.66MB In, 132.94MB Out) #2(WAN (PPP/SLIP) Interface (512Kb/s) 32.76MB In, 2.87MB Out))<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

A lovely 32.76MB...NOW it really adds up! Ain't that just lvoely ladies & gentlement? Don't we ADSL people feel loved by our Teleco? [

!]

=TT=

syntaX1 · Jul 27, 2003

LOL Rev,

Thanks for the update. I was going to have to look at Wavewatch's Webcam for Durban beaches to see what the surf was like. Haven't been down for a surf in ages, too busy working, but I think I'll just take a drive down. Paying the petrol could possibly be cheaper than viewing the webcam.

Nemesis · Jul 27, 2003

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by syntaX
 I'm pretty sure that if ADSL were priced more competitively, hmm.. reasonably, the takeup would be far greater. I realize that bandwidth is a problem, but it takes money to make money, and the investment in additional international bandwidth (if even required) could solve that problem. I'm sure that Telkom is making money off us, so I'm certain it's not that they are short on capital to make this investment.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That is so damn true syntaX, takes money to make money, Telkom doesn't realise that, that Internet official i was talking about in another thread said that as well, if, with help from the community, could get South Africa's bandwidth going...

Not only do you "Power users" use your ADSL, but many businesses do, my dad owns sound recording studios in Cape Town, he uses ISDN to record live voices of people in Johannesburg, saving him a lot of money on flying the voice artist down. Although it costs him a fortune on his isdn bill at the end of the month, thats where ADSL would come in, 24/7 internet, at a far cheaper price, but think again, downtime, slow speeds, that would cause an absolute riot with his customers, do we isdn users ever have downtime? NO. Do we every have slow speeds.NO, we have constant reliable maximum speeds 24/7...

So clearly Telkom have perfected this ISDN service, and thats the product they are most willing to sell...

YEs Odge i agree with what you saying, telkom offer 512mb DIGINET, now why on earth would they want to sell DSL then, it isn't 24/7 internet, and the only reliable connection at those speeds is the diginet, costing 30 times more...

ADSL IS A SCAM!!! Simple as that, they've tricked you into buying thise uber fast connection for 2/5 of the month, while using their fast connections and not at the expense of their loyal ISDN users..

They can't claim that its lighting fast, its got a 3gb cap and lots of down time...

If you want those sort of speeds, get the 512 DIGINET, unfortunately thats the way Telkom are...sad isn't it...[

!] [xx(]

Nemesis · Jul 27, 2003

Oh and another thing, Telkom are a business not a charity..

Profit comes before the customer in their case

They have more than enough money stashed away, upgrading their international lines would come at no expense. How long has Telkom been going?

Karnaugh · Jul 28, 2003

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by syntaX
 Well Karnaugh,

You may be suprised to know that I'm not at ALL interested in 'stupid mp3s', I'm interested in Microsoft's new developments in Microsoft's live Webcasts, in evaluating different websites, so don't jump to conclusions about thing of which you are not entirely certain.

What I want, is the service for which we've all paid to be provided, and I have NEVER experienced bad browsing while uncapped, irrespective of how many of 'those' people were using p2p applications.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Actualy you paid for a service where you you were fully aware that speeds are NOT GUARANTEED (and it is made clear by telkom) and you will be capped to a maximum transfer capacity of 3GB... My statement was in the context of p2p software, if no QoS or prioritisation is enforced then "useless" traffic can degrade more business important services (SSH, pop3, SMTP and HTTP to name a few). I dont deny that one can't download MP3's from FTP, or HTTP or even IRC but I'm pretty sure that the bulk of it comes from p2p networks hence why it is deprioritised

Basicly telkom shaged themselves and I thought this might happen, ADSL users are in their own pool.. They have to be to ensure the rest of us get the bandwidth that we pay to be guaranteed. Telkom just basicly has too many ADSL users, and because you only need to be guaranteed something like 9600baud by teleco regulations, when bandwidth comes under strain their first action will be to throttle you down.

Like most businesses there is some guy at the top, we have all seen the CEO of Telkom on TV and lets face it he wouldnt know an RJ45 from a PCP. Unfortunatly there are morons running the company, their job is money and they dont know jack about anythign else. There are probably lots of techies at telkom telling the big bosses to get a clue and put bigger lines in but they are giggleing their fat arses off and saying "but we can just cap the ADSL users".

If the tuna tastes bad then stop eating it! So the worst thing you can do to someone who wants money is not give it to them, so ffs just get ISDN... Telkom will sit with millions of rands worth of empty DSLAMS and will be forced to lower the price..

rpm · Jul 28, 2003

Hi Karnaugh

It will be great if we can simply switch to ISDN, but I invested a few thousand into this service and would also like to see it work. I doubt that there will be a mass exodus from ADSL to ISDN, and Telkom will therefore continue with bad data services unless users fight back.

I did include the issue of transfer to ISDN in my letter to Telkom, and am eagerly awaiting their reply.

Regards,

RPM

RPM
[email protected]

syntaX1 · Jul 28, 2003

Hi Karnaugh,

Unfortunately, I'm not one of those businesses which can afford ISDN, and If I were, I would certainly go the satellite route and bypass telkom all together. I'm a business starting out, and the price range suits someone like me down to the ground. ISDN After hours? For a business? That won't go down too well where my cliens and their customers cannot access their own sites.

The reason I'm fighting for this is not for p2p, but that I've got a huge project under development which uses the higher ports. Sure, I could move them down, but why should I let Telkom dictate MY business and everyone elses? Is there no such thing as freedom any more? Seems not...

rpm · Jul 28, 2003

Hi Syntax

Very valid points.

And I see that I am not the only one working in the early mornings

Regards,

RPM

RPM
[email protected]

Karnaugh · Jul 28, 2003

Look i'm not saying what telkom is doing is right.. dont get me wrong on that.

The problem is they stated its uses, and so far they havent breached any of that - so with all respect there isnt anything you can really do. This is a gigantic company and it will not bother listening to you

most of your complaints wont even go further than the idiot telephone operator you talk to. Even if they do it will be ages before anything is done by which time things probably will have changed anyway.

Although not affordable for a small business Diginet would be the best solution, Or in your case I'd actualy recomend an analog leased line unless speed is a majour concern, seeing as you are getting bugger all bandwidth with your ADSL during the day anyway

And its arround the same cost as ADSL... There are ways to hurt telkom by just avoiding them - make use of dedicated servers (local and abroad)and dont buy telkom lines at all is one way. Complaining to telkom about something like this is like pissing on a bush fire. I agree if they got masses of complaints things may change. But posting on the board might not help (I'm not saying dont, but dont JUST post here and expect anything to happen real soon).. Unless we just swamp them with emails

(idea here). ICASA included.

paf · Jul 28, 2003

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Karnaugh
 The problem is they stated its uses, and so far they havent breached any of that.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Tell me, where does it say that after the cap you cannot access any international sites AT ALL anymore? And where do they precisely define what goes into the 3GB volume? Is it clear anywhere that every little bit you send no matter where goes into the cap?
Sure there is no guarantee - that would be dependant on too many factors out of Telkom's control.
But who is complaining about not getting the 512kbps throughput? The question is: do you get the impression that they are trying very hard?

syntaX1 · Jul 28, 2003

Hi,

I've heard that there is a new service being launched later this year, on to which I will certainly make a move. It's comparitive to ADSL but can also scale to 2mbit which should be great. They are also aware of our gripes and so know what to deliver for it to be successful. For too long have telkom taken advantage of us, and my money will be the first to go towards this new market.

I'm also hoping that this site can generate enough for us to be able to approach Telkom not only as a site or a few people getting together to complain about their lack of service, but as a community of ADSL users as it was intended.

Hey rpm, days just don't seem long enough anymore. I wouldn't mind having days (and the sunrise/sunset to match) of about 32 hours. That would be far better I think.

Sliver · Jul 28, 2003

I have to fully agree with Odge here. I visited the telkom website a few days back and it clearly states that there are NO guarantees.

As for people who got ADSL in the early stages and had decent speeds and are now unhapy, thats what you get for jumping into a solution thats got no users on it. I personaly know people that did this, i warned them that the service would degrade as more users piled into the bandwidth pool for adsl, did they listen when i warned them ??? No they didn't.

As for people that are trying to compare ADSL to ISDN speeds, look at what an ISDN user is paying for ISP fees, it's usually around R200pm, now aren't adsl users paying about the same for a PERMANANT connection ????

And as for the mountains of people whining about the costs of ADSL why don't you go get a quote on a diginet line. The line on it's own is about R1800 then you have to add ISP fees on top of that ranging from anywhere between R2000-R8000 depending on what guarantees you want. And thats just on a 64k circuit. Bandwidth on a 512k circuit with a guaranteed 512k intl can easily hit R80 000 or more.

STOP COMPARING SA TO USA, KOREA and UK. This is South Africa, wake up. We don't have the infrastructure that these countries have, or the money for that matter.

If you would be happy with ISDN speeds, get isdn, pay R600p/m to be connected from 7-7, nobody is forcing you to use adsl, i know lots of people have payed a lot of money for adsl equipment, this is one reason i have waited so long to go ahead with my adsl installation. Looks like me waiting 6 months has saved me a lot of head aches.

ADSL could potentialy be an awesome service, i don't know why telkom don't offer different packages where users can pay slightly more for a higher cap or better bandwidt, I for one wouldn't mind paying a few hunder rand more for a better service with at least some sort of guarantees.

pretext · Jul 28, 2003

Bottom line is that Telkom should not be allowed to take money from people for something they can't offer - REGARDLESS OF THE NO GUARANTEES FINE PRINT, and obvious discrepancies in the pricing between ADSL and ISDN.

Its very simple actually (and something which is able to be challenged at law) - if Telkom offers this service they MUST have the infrastructure to support it - regardless. And, quite clearly, they don't (do the number of ADSL users vs bandwidth arithmetic).
I think they're in for some trouble about this. Happy days!

paf · Jul 28, 2003

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Sliver
 I i warned them that the service would degrade as more users piled into the bandwidth pool for adsl, did they listen when i warned them ??? No they didn't.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Well, what a smart boy you are. Wish I could be as clever and clairvoyant as you.

Imagine you buy a Porsche 911 Turbo. Nice!
But then, as you look at this thing, you realise you had better not go too fast in it, because the brakes come from a Ford Fiesta. (That's what the 3GB cap is.)
But not to worry. Because as you're cruising along, you keep wondering to yourself, why does that engine sound so crap? And where the hell did all the torque go? So you open the bonnet, and lo, the engine was taken from a 1958 Beetle. (That's the performance we're getting.)

And in the meantime, all those w*****s who only got the Boxter are just whizzing past you.

How would that make you feel? And what would you say to the dealer who tells you that he never gave you the guarantee this thing could do 290kph.

Exactly! That's how I feel.
Sorry, but being cynical about this makes me feel better.

Sliver · Jul 28, 2003

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by paf
 Well, what a smart boy you are. Wish I could be as clever and clairvoyant as you.

Imagine you buy a Porsche 911 Turbo. Nice!
But then, as you look at this thing, you realise you had better not go too fast in it, because the brakes come from a Ford Fiesta. (That's what the 3GB cap is.)
But not to worry. Because as you're cruising along, you keep wondering to yourself, why does that engine sound so crap? And where the hell did all the torque go? So you open the bonnet, and lo, the engine was taken from a 1958 Beetle. (That's the performance we're getting.)

And in the meantime, all those w*****s who only got the Boxter are just whizzing past you.

How would that make you feel? And what would you say to the dealer who tells you that he never gave you the guarantee this thing could do 290kph.

Exactly! That's how I feel.
Sorry, but being cynical about this makes me feel better.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If i was going to spend that kinda money on a car i think i'd take enough time to check under the bonnet and test drive it first. This is exactly what i've done with adsl, i waited to see what the general feeling was and now i can base my decision on actuall facts instead of basing it on some very sketchy info off telkoms website.

Pity it's turning out to be so bad, i was really looking forward to having a decent connection at a decent price

paf · Jul 28, 2003

True, but the point is. I know what I can expect from a Porsche, and in the same way I know what I can expect from ADSL.

I don't really have a way of test driving the dealer (Telkom) and knowing in advance how they maintain the Porsche (ADSL), do I?

Sure, I could've done what you did i.e. wait and see how this thing develops. But I was too impatient. My mistake.
Cheers

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