Betta Toilet flushing problems

[BuddyD]

05-04-2022
A year ago we had an entry level Betta Toilet installed by a certified plumber. The flushing was so ineffective that we complained to the plumber and supplier, CTM Richmond Park. Explanation from the supplier was that it was an entry level toilet only suitable for an outside/holiday accommodation. We could not return it as it had been used however we purchased another Betta, an IQWA model (middle level) from them at a slightly discounted price. The IQWA has proved to be
just as bad, requiring 2 flushes every time it is used. We have had the drain pipes checked for obstruction but to no effect. The problem appears to be a lack of effective flushing.
Our previous toilet, an old model (Vaal) flushed so much more effectively and so does an old Squires we have in an outside quarters. Our conclusion at this stage is that Betta toilets have inadequate flushing design in that there is a lack of an effective siphon suction out of the toilet bowl.
Any advice, experiences or recommendations regarding a similar problem would be appreciated. Thank you.

 

[Space]

replace the flushing mechanism in the cistern to the new-fangled type:

 

[WAslayer]

We have a toilet with terrible flushing as well.. our issue, far I can tell, likely stems from the cistern being too small for the bowl.. not enough pressure generated to effectively push out the waste.. the bowl just fills up for the most part and then just drains slowly..

 

[skeptic_SA]

Eat more more roughage and fiber.

 

[RonSwanson]

Any advice, experiences or recommendations regarding a similar problem would be appreciated. Thank you.

It sounds like you were flumoxed.
Next time, ask for a demo. Eat a large eisbein with a double helping of sauerkraut. When the time is right (you will know) go to the demo toilet and take a dump. Flush what you have dumped and count how many times it takes.

 

[Mike Hoxbig]

The issue is likely the mechanism not working too well with the cistern. If space is constrained, it may not be able to fully open, resulting in the water not being drained fast enough.

For example:

When 1 is opened, the water is drained through the gap created. The button triggers 1 to open.

Now if 2 moves up when 1 opens, but is obstructed by the cistern cover on top, 1 wouldn't be able to open fully and would therefore result in the low pressure. Think of opening a tap 25% vs 100%.

You do get mechanisms where 2 doesn't move at all. Instead of wasting more money, you should probably get a good plumber in to diagnose the issue properly. If it is the mechanism, he'll likely have one that will work with your cistern.

Shops that sell toilets usually don't bother checking mechanism compatibility when selling you the mechanism. They just sell whatever they have stock of. We had this issue with the toilet my wife wanted. In the end we had to get a plumber in and he explained the above to me before replacing it with a proper one that now flushes properly...

 

[BuddyD]

Thank you for your interesting advice Mike, much appreciated. However I have noticed that a flush mostly results in the water level rising to about half way in the bowl for the duration of the flush. The cistern is set to it's max of 6litres and I always keep the button depressed to ensure it empties the cistern plus a bit more, as they plumbers recommended. Perhaps 6 litres is not sufficient for the bowl we have, although it was bought as a set.

 

[Mike Hoxbig]

2 things. If the water is rising in the bowl, you have a blockage. Secondly 6 litres seems quite low. Check if it's not perhaps the recommended level rather than the maximum. Can you post a pic of the whole toilet?

 

[thehuman]

Dump a 20l bucket of water in pot , see how fast it drain.
Im also thinking pipes dont drain fast enough.
Our place the pipe from pot to outside angle is not steep enough and toilet paper start to dam up.

 

[chrisc]

We have flushmaster systems in our house
There is a large (200 litre) tank in the roof and the lever dispenses a timed amount of water. The roof is above the first floor and the pipe is 38mm diameter
You can adjust the time from about 15 seconds to 45 seconds.
The original is 74 years old. Since we've been here I replaced the valve rubbers once. Its an American-designed and made device, amazing quality

 

[BuddyD]

Thank you again Mike, I shall attach a pic of toilet and cistern. Another concern I would like to mention is:
When the new toilet was installed, in order to connect the new toilet outlet pipe to the old waste pipe underground, the plumber fitted 3 drain pipe elbows in tandem creating a bend followed by an "S" bend. Hence the outlet flows through 3 x 90 degree bends before the flow has a straight path. I realize the 110mm width of the drain pipe is quite large but I wondered if the 3 bends in tandem directly after the bowl may result in slight resistance to the free flow of the waste water and reduce the siphon effect of the bowl.
Would really appreciate any advice in this regard.

 

[Mike Hoxbig]

Thank you again Mike, I shall attach a pic of toilet and cistern. Another concern I would like to mention is:
When the new toilet was installed, in order to connect the new toilet outlet pipe to the old waste pipe underground, the plumber fitted 3 drain pipe elbows in tandem creating a bend followed by an "S" bend. Hence the outlet flows through 3 x 90 degree bends before the flow has a straight path. I realize the 110mm width of the drain pipe is quite large but I wondered if the 3 bends in tandem directly after the bowl may result in slight resistance to the free flow of the waste water and reduce the siphon effect of the bowl.
Would really appreciate any advice in this regard.

We actually have the same thing (or very similar) in one of the bathrooms.



That's not even the one that was giving us issues, it works just fine. That would be this overpriced thing.

Firstly, get the blockage sorted out. See how it flushes.

Secondly, it is definitely not a 6 litre tank. I think it can go to 9 or 10, which is what ours is set to. Obviously this depends on the mechanism as well. If the mechanism is too short, the water won't be able to fill too high.

Get a plumber to come and do a proper diagnosis. Almost certain about the blockage. But also to check which mechanism will allow you to get more water in the tank...

 

[BuddyD]

You are dead right, on closer inspection the cistern is more than a 6 litre tank. It could go to 9 or 10, but the mechanism is too short, hence will need to be changed. That's far less trouble and worth a try, and will likely rule out other issues.
Thank you very much Mike for your good advice.

Aside: The toilet you pointed to (R8000.00) is way costlier than the Betta IQWA model we bought, R1900.00 at the time, discounted to us for R1600.00, already over my budget.
CTM only sell Betta toilets, they told me. I would avoid them as a supplier in future and also the brand.
Plumbers: Incompetent plumbers, which are abundant, you pay the price to come to that realization.
3 different plumbers were involved in our installation.

 

[RedViking]

I would highly recommend the poop knife.

https://mybroadband.co.za/forum/threads/poop-knife.932775/#post-20967325

 

[Geoff.D]

Those extra bends are definitely part of the problem. Most toilet bowls are designed to be coupled directly to the outlet pipe at a downward sloping angle in line with the pipe. Any extra bends and other things result in just enough of a slow outflow to upset the siphoning effect from functioning properly. The next thing is plumbers do not bother to check what kit is required in the cistern before installation and just instal whatever comes to hand, which very often means insufficient water volume to achieve optimum flushing. This nonsense started with all the water restrictions, where everyone went to extreme lengths to reduce water usage, often compromising on cistern efficiencies.

Another problem that might exist is that there is a gap between the toilet bowl and the outlet pipe, which happens IF the plumber was careless about working out how long the pipe needed to be. That gap causes turbulence inside the outlet pipe which means plenty of water flows into the gap instead of down the pipe. It is absolutely fatal for an effective flush and not easy to fix without a complete re-install of the bowl. The entire toilet has to be removed, the pipe lengthened and recut to the correct length.

Forget all that BS about entry-level etc -- that is just ignorant and useless salespeople talk.

 

[Mike Hoxbig]

Those extra bends are definitely part of the problem. Most toilet bowls are designed to be coupled directly to the outlet pipe at a downward sloping angle in line with the pipe. Any extra bends and other things result in just enough of a slow outflow to upset the siphoning effect from functioning properly. The next thing is plumbers do not bother to check what kit is required in the cistern before installation and just instal whatever comes to hand, which very often means insufficient water volume to achieve optimum flushing. This nonsense started with all the water restrictions, where everyone went to extreme lengths to reduce water usage, often compromising on cistern efficiencies.

Another problem that might exist is that there is a gap between the toilet bowl and the outlet pipe, which happens IF the plumber was careless about working out how long the pipe needed to be. That gap causes turbulence inside the outlet pipe which means plenty of water flows into the gap instead of down the pipe. It is absolutely fatal for an effective flush and not easy to fix without a complete re-install of the bowl. The entire toilet has to be removed, the pipe lengthened and recut to the correct length.

Forget all that BS about entry-level etc -- that is just ignorant and useless salespeople talk.

It's also a problem with the suppliers not selling the mechanisms best suited to the cistern you're buying. They just sell you whatever, and we as customers don't think to check something like this.

Agreed the cost doesn't even factor into it. It's a piece of ceramic, not some complicated machinery. Our 2k ones flush better than the 8k one my wife insisted on to match the tub. What matters is how much water the tank can hold, and the mechanism best suited to it...

 

[BuddyD]

The poop-knife thread was hilarious, but certainly not our problem. Having maintained a home toilet for over 50 years, I am well aware of the type of blockage described (we call it a log) versus a malfunctioning toilet. A good toilet should clear an average poop, more than that I would not expect. A brand new toilet that struggles to clear a small amount of toilet paper, must have a problem.

 

[Geoff.D]

Those extra bends are definitely part of the problem. Most toilet bowls are designed to be coupled directly to the outlet pipe at a downward sloping angle in line with the pipe. Any extra bends and other things result in just enough of a slow outflow to upset the siphoning effect from functioning properly. The next thing is plumbers do not bother to check what kit is required in the cistern before installation and just instal whatever comes to hand, which very often means insufficient water volume to achieve optimum flushing. This nonsense started with all the water restrictions, where everyone went to extreme lengths to reduce water usage, often compromising on cistern efficiencies.

Another problem that might exist is that there is a gap between the toilet bowl and the outlet pipe, which happens IF the plumber was careless about working out how long the pipe needed to be. That gap causes turbulence inside the outlet pipe which means plenty of water flows into the gap instead of down the pipe. It is absolutely fatal for an effective flush and not easy to fix without a complete re-install of the bowl. The entire toilet has to be removed, the pipe lengthened and recut to the correct length.

Forget all that BS about entry-level etc -- that is just ignorant and useless salespeople talk.

To add:. The problem with extra bends is related to how they were installed. If installed in such a way to maintain the slope or fall on the pipe, then maybe it will work, but unless the plumber bothered to use a spirit level in the installation process, he might have compromised on the slope overall. Then the next issue is how neatly the pipes were cut and made off on the bends and the joints were done properly.

A fall between 1:40 and 1:110 is generally okay. Too little and the flow is too slow to flush properly. Too much and the bowl will siphon empty, especially if the venting has not been done properly.

 

[DapperDanMan]

Any advice, experiences or recommendations regarding a similar problem would be appreciated.

Betta way: Eating less.

 

[Geoff.D]

It's also a problem with the suppliers not selling the mechanisms best suited to the cistern you're buying. They just sell you whatever, and we as customers don't think to check something like this.

Agreed the cost doesn't even factor into it. It's a piece of ceramic, not some complicated machinery. Our 2k ones flush better than the 8k one my wife insisted on to match the tub. What matters is how much water the tank can hold, and the mechanism best suited to it...

Ja. I saw it with the toilets in my sister's place in Durbanville. During the water restrictions, all sorts of tricks were done to "save water". coke bottles full of water and sealed placed in the cisterns etc. Low volume flushes that were inadequate which then caused blockages to develop.

Next was the mechanisms started to pack up -- replaced with the newer fancy ones but incorrectly sized and even if correct, not adjusted for the specific cistern. I moved down to CT and have so far "fixed" 5 toilets in three houses, ALL of them "repaired" by licensed plumbers using new kits that were either wrong or not adjusted correctly.

One was a 9-litre cistern where the installed mechanism was for a 6-litre cistern and set to minimum which meant less than 4 litres per flush.

A supplier in Brackenfell just brought out the first one he laid his hands on when I bought new ones -- had to specifically ask for all the models he had so that I could select the correct ones for the cisterns.