Beware the spinal trap & more

[w1z4rd]

The pseudoscience (false science) that Chiropractors practice is under fire in this article:

This is Chiropractic Awareness Week. So let's be aware. How about some awareness that may prevent harm and help you make truly informed choices? First, you might be surprised to know that the founder of chiropractic therapy, Daniel David Palmer, wrote that, "99% of all diseases are caused by displaced vertebrae". In the 1860s, Palmer began to develop his theory that the spine was involved in almost every illness because the spinal cord connects the brain to the rest of the body. Therefore any misalignment could cause a problem in distant parts of the body.

In fact, Palmer's first chiropractic intervention supposedly cured a man who had been profoundly deaf for 17 years. His second treatment was equally strange, because he claimed that he treated a patient with heart trouble by correcting a displaced vertebra.

You might think that modern chiropractors restrict themselves to treating back problems, but in fact they still possess some quite wacky ideas. The fundamentalists argue that they can cure anything. And even the more moderate chiropractors have ideas above their station. The British Chiropractic Association claims that their members can help treat children with colic, sleeping and feeding problems, frequent ear infections, asthma and prolonged crying, even though there is not a jot of evidence. This organisation is the respectable face of the chiropractic profession and yet it happily promotes bogus treatments.

I can confidently label these treatments as bogus because I have co-authored a book about alternative medicine with the world's first professor of complementary medicine, Edzard Ernst. He learned chiropractic techniques himself and used them as a doctor. This is when he began to see the need for some critical evaluation. Among other projects, he examined the evidence from 70 trials exploring the benefits of chiropractic therapy in conditions unrelated to the back. He found no evidence to suggest that chiropractors could treat any such conditions

http://svetlana14s.narod.ru/Simon_Singhs_silenced_paper.html

The article was originally published in The Guardian but had to be withdrawn because Chiropractors behaving like little Scientologists sued Simon Sign for telling the truth and calling bs on their dishonest profession.

Simon Singh was sued by these siffies and 200 000 pounds later Simon won his case, this is is interview with wired after he won the case:

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2010/08/mf_qa_singh/

I love the name of his book, "Trick or treatment".

Chiropractors are no more than useful than the local sangoma`s. Good on Simon for standing his ground against this dishonest science.

 

[hyperchamp]

Man, I hate this "alternative healing" brigade. Preying of the desperation of the ill.

It's like these people who prefer "natural" remedies. As if we wasted all that time learning to extract the exact elements that make the medicine effective and take out all the sundries. Technology is your friend people. Greedy FDA and those debates aside.

 

[w1z4rd]

Do you know what you call alternative medicine that works? Medicine.

 

[hyperchamp]

Do you know what you call alternative medicine that works? Medicine.

lol.

 

[PeterCH]

There is actually A level grade evidence that hypnosis, guided imagery, biofeedback and mindfulness meditation work. Level A means high quality, consistent evidence from randomised trials. These modalities are considered alternative medicine. Sourced from Current Medical Diagnosis and Treatment, Lange.

I've never referred anyone to a chiropractor and I was never taught to ever refer anyone to someone like that. It's the same with probiotics, they are not taught at any level.

 

[zulgin]

this thread reminds me of two and a half men.

 

[Jamal]

Placebo responses are as good as the real thing for people who are lucky enough to experience them. Better to get an anti-anxiety response from a harmless homeopathic remedy than from a schedule 5 tranquiliser.

 

[The_Unbeliever]

I don't like it to pump myself full of antibiotics and the such every time I get the sniffles or some illness.

I'll take immune boosters and vitamins and see if things get better or not.

Only if things doesn't get better then I'll go to a doctor. So far this strategy worked, haven't seen the doctor for a long, long time.

Problem is when people's on antibiotics that they don't complete the course, and this lead to goggas getting resistance against some antibiotics.

And :wtf: as to a misaligned spine leading to heart problems. Still on that one - the spine only carries the impulses from brain to body, so how can it cause your heart to go? Even affecting your hearing? :wtf:

 

[Balstrome]

Placebo responses are as good as the real thing for people who are lucky enough to experience them. Better to get an anti-anxiety response from a harmless homeopathic remedy than from a schedule 5 tranquiliser.

I think you are mistaken here, about these drugs, S5 drugs usually fall into two categories, one been to actively mask the symptoms of the illness, and two to assist in changing the chemical balance to help start the healing process. With a placebo, all it would take is for the patient to be convinced after taking the placebo, that the pill has no biologic effect and the placebo effect will stop. Not so, with the S5 drug, the effect continues without the patients knowledge.

That is why you do not find placebo's administered in place of S5 drugs, or rather a proper doctor would not administer placebo's in their place.

Just eat fresh green veggies with your steaks and you will get all the vitamins you need. Plus a 30 Min or so, run around outside in the sun, will keep you healthy.

 

[Jamal]

I think you are mistaken here, about these drugs, S5 drugs usually fall into two categories, one been to actively mask the symptoms of the illness, and two to assist in changing the chemical balance to help start the healing process. With a placebo, all it would take is for the patient to be convinced after taking the placebo, that the pill has no biologic effect and the placebo effect will stop. Not so, with the S5 drug, the effect continues without the patients knowledge.

That is why you do not find placebo's administered in place of S5 drugs, or rather a proper doctor would not administer placebo's in their place.

Just eat fresh green veggies with your steaks and you will get all the vitamins you need. Plus a 30 Min or so, run around outside in the sun, will keep you healthy.

The placebo effect is more than simply a psycho-somatic response. It includes any response not attributable to the active pharmacological compound. Such a response may be due to dietary changes, climatic changes, spontaneous remission, having a caring person listen to your problems, etc.

Take for example the common cold. There is no scientific basis for the use of antibiotics in individuals who do not fall into populations at high risk of complications (smokers, the elderly, people with emphysema, etc.) The WHO even advises against the use of antibiotics to treat the common cold for people outside these high-risk populations. Yet doctors routinely prescribe antibiotics in such cases. The patient get better by spontaneous remission after two weeks. This is technically a placebo response to the antibiotic. In such a case I argue that a harmless homeopathic remedy is better.

 

[porchrat]

Surely chiropractors do help with some things though? Sorting out back pain and stuff?

Curing something like deafness seems like a bit of a stretch though for people that straighten bones.

 

[Balstrome]

The placebo effect is more than simply a psycho-somatic response. It includes any response not attributable to the active pharmacological compound. Such a response may be due to dietary changes, climatic changes, spontaneous remission, having a caring person listen to your problems, etc.

Take for example the common cold. There is no scientific basis for the use of antibiotics in individuals who do not fall into populations at high risk of complications (smokers, the elderly, people with emphysema, etc.) The WHO even advises against the use of antibiotics to treat the common cold for people outside these high-risk populations. Yet doctors routinely prescribe antibiotics in such cases. The patient get better by spontaneous remission after two weeks. This is technically a placebo response to the antibiotic. In such a case I argue that a harmless homeopathic remedy is better.

How does at in any way address the points that I made. In fact your two paragraphs do not even link up with each other in your own argument. But the worst is that you advocate a homoeopathic solution, when you know there are better solutions available.

 

[Balstrome]

Surely chiropractors do help with some things though? Sorting out back pain and stuff?

Curing something like deafness seems like a bit of a stretch though for people that straighten bones.

Porchrat, do some digging on these back breakers and see what woo they get up to. From the really anti-chiropractor side, I would suggest Penn&Teller Season 1 Episode 02 for a start. Then whack the web for more of their woo. (Yes, any chiropractors out there, you are con artists and woo merchants, living off unreasoning folk who come to you for help)

 

[porchrat]

Porchrat, do some digging on these back breakers and see what woo they get up to. From the really anti-chiropractor side, I would suggest Penn&Teller Season 1 Episode 02 for a start. Then whack the web for more of their woo. (Yes, any chiropractors out there, you are con artists and woo merchants, living off unreasoning folk who come to you for help)

Yea but surely for some things chiropractors actually can help? Like back pain?

PeterCH... input?

 

[Jamal]

How does at in any way address the points that I made. In fact your two paragraphs do not even link up with each other in your own argument. But the worst is that you advocate a homoeopathic solution, when you know there are better solutions available.

In the first paragraph I addressed the misconception raised by yourself that placebo responses are purely psychosomatic, that upon learning that he is using a placebo drug, the patient will relapse back into a state of illness. This is not correct. Then I proceed to give examples of other causes of placebo response, including spontaneous remission, namely that many illnesses get better by themselves eventually. In the second paragraph I then proceed to give a specific example of this, namely the common cold, and argue that the use of antibiotics in such cases is more harmful than the use of a pharmacologically inert homeopathic remedy.

I'm sorry you think it's so bad that I advocate a harmless placebo such as a homeopathic remedy to be preferable to a harmful placebo such as an antibiotic for the treatment of the common cold in otherwise healthy individuals. Unfortunately I don't know of a better alternative though since the common cold is at present medically intractable and has to run its course.

 

[Balstrome]

Yea but surely for some things chiropractors actually can help? Like back pain?

PeterCH... input?

I take it that you have never seen one of these whack jobs at work? How strong is your stomach ? In the P&T episode, the one guys boasts that he cracked the back of a one month old baby to fix some alleged problem that the kid had.


And yes, I know the supporters of them are going to beat me because I used P&T as a reference. Sod em, I say.

 

[porchrat]

I take it that you have never seen one of these whack jobs at work? How strong is your stomach ? In the P&T episode, the one guys boasts that he cracked the back of a one month old baby to fix some alleged problem that the kid had.


And yes, I know the supporters of them are going to beat me because I used P&T as a reference. Sod em, I say.

No I've never been to one. In fact I haven't seen a regular doctor in years either. I am a relatively healthy person so I don't really have a whole lot of healthcare issues.

Still the babies aside it seems logical to me that an issue stemming from muscle problems or slight skeletal misalignments could be sorted by someone that rearranges bones for a living.

 

[zulgin]

I've been to one before I considered a spine operation, it costs way less money and you can actually feel the bones sliding back. I didn't even know that they were regarded as alternative medicine.

 

[Balstrome]

In the first paragraph I addressed the misconception raised by yourself that placebo responses are purely psychosomatic, that upon learning that he is using a placebo drug, the patient will relapse back into a state of illness. This is not correct. Then I proceed to give examples of other causes of placebo response, including spontaneous remission, namely that many illnesses get better by themselves eventually. In the second paragraph I then proceed to give a specific example of this, namely the common cold, and argue that the use of antibiotics in such cases is more harmful than the use of a pharmacologically inert homeopathic remedy.

I'm sorry you think it's so bad that I advocate a harmless placebo such as a homeopathic remedy to be preferable to a harmful placebo such as an antibiotic for the treatment of the common cold in otherwise healthy individuals. Unfortunately I don't know of a better alternative though since the common cold is at present medically intractable and has to run its course.

Any illness that can be considered to have a psychosomatic attribute, are very difficult to classify as a purely Psychosomatic condition, which means that that part of the illness can be ignored and the treatable attributes of the illness be take care off. This means that once the physical parts of the illness has been dealt with, the rest of the illness, the psychosomatic portions will disappear. Like your cold example, plenty of rest, fluids, and low level pain relief to support the patient though the cold. No need for placebos or antibiotics, as you alleged.

But, if you really think homoeopathic remedies work or help in any way, then don't give them to the patient, think of it as a mega booster shot.

 

[Balstrome]

I've been to one before I considered a spine operation, it costs way less money and you can actually feel the bones sliding back. I didn't even know that they were regarded as alternative medicine.

I take it that you never asked the quack, why he was doing this, and how it would help you. Maybe you did, but I will bet that you did not understand a single word that he babbled at you.