Bitcoin Thread

[saor]

What if I am only buying btc/ether via luno to put it on binance to buy alts? If I buy x coin for 5000 rand last month and now its worth 10000 rand, I am not crying myself to sleep. I do believe many if the alts will outperform bitcoin in terms of my potential gains and even if that's not true in the short term, time will tell.I am not a trader, I am an enthusiastic spectator.

Another example then, WAVES/BTC. If you're thinking about the valuation in USD terms you might think the price is steady from May onwards, but that steadiness is only being achieved by the increase in bitcoin balancing out the absolute dump in WAVES/BTC value.

 

[Countcrypto]

Look at TRON for example.
If I'm trading TRX/BTC, all that matters is the BTC value.

If I bought TRX with BTC on 01 May and sold on 24 June, that was a losing trade. I sold for less BTC than I bought - there's no way to wiggle words to make that look like a winning trade.

Upward orange line = TRON USD value
Downward candles = TRON BTC value

View attachment 676545

The only reason it's USD value is up, is because it valuation is derived from its current BTC value (I'm trading TRX/BTC, remember). So the same chart with BTC added to see the correlation:

View attachment 676547

Ok real life example. I bought 10000 tron when it was 2 cents early this year before they had their conference. It's now worth 3.8 cents. I have not lost money and Tron is not worth less now that it was when I bought it. When I sell it (if I do) it will be in a few years and if nothing has advanced in how we do things now it will be into Btc or Ether with intent to maybe hold those or cash out. I will never ever worry about whether it was money better invested in something else or how it related to anything else but fiat. I made a call with intent to try be early in an asset class and it was never about flipping a buck.


Trust me there is nothing complex about the concept of comparing the relative growth between btc and another project. In full understanding of that I am choosing other positions with the long term in site.

 

[saor]

Ok real life exame. I bought 10000 tron when it was 2 cents early this year before they had their conference. It's now worth 3.8 cents.

That's because BTC is up in price. You would likely have made more money just staying in BTC and selling to fiat now. I'm willing to bet you sold for less BTC than you bought even tho you're getting more USD - I don't know the exact dates you bought.

To be clear: I'm not saying no alts have made proper gains, my issue it with people trading ALT/BTC trading pairs but only looking at the USD value thinking their trade is up. Your trade is measured against the trading pair you entered into (TRX/BTC), not the USD value.

 

[saor]

Ok real life example. I bought 10000 tron when it was 2 cents early this year before they had their conference.

Ok, so...what date this year did you buy TRX?

 

[Countcrypto]

That's because BTC is up in price. You would likely have made more money just staying in BTC and selling to fiat now. I'm willing to bet you sold for less BTC than you bought even tho you're getting more USD - I don't know the exact dates you bought.

To be clear: I'm not saying no alts have made proper gains, my issue it with people trading ALT/BTC trading pairs but only looking at the USD value thinking their trade is up. Your trade is measured against the trading pair you entered into (TRX/BTC), not the USD value.

I really have no problem grasping the simple concept, but your assumption is wrong in that I haven't sold nor intend too for a long time. Tron is probably one of my least favorite projects I am invested in but it does have a lot of momentum and usuage on it's network of daps so it's more hedging my bets to hold some.

 

[Countcrypto]

Ok, so...what date this year did you buy TRX?

This year around Jan if I recall.

 

[saor]

I really have no problem grasping the simple concept, but your assumption is wrong in that I haven't sold nor intend too for a long time.

Where did I make that assumption? I never said anything about your trading strategy etc. I'm just talking about how you're perceiving value.

 

[Countcrypto]

Where did I make that assumption? I never said anything about your trading strategy etc. I'm just talking about how you're perceiving value.

In fiat, not bitcoin. Just as I assess bitcoin in today's fiat value.

To do differently is to add a step and arrive at the same very conclusion. They all correlate to each other proportionally.

 

[saor]

In fiat, not bitcoin. Just as I assess bitcoin in today's fiat value.

I don't know what your argument is anymore. You were saying your alts are up in USD terms, I responded by saying their value is measured in BTC (assuming you entered into a BTC trading pair).

I was gonna analyze your TRX trade from Jan to now and show that you would've made more just sticking to BTC but you seem to be on some other discussion now.

 

[Thor]

Ok real life example. I bought 10000 tron when it was 2 cents early this year before they had their conference. It's now worth 3.8 cents. I have not lost money and Tron is not worth less now that it was when I bought it. When I sell it (if I do) it will be in a few years and if nothing has advanced in how we do things now it will be into Btc or Ether with intent to maybe hold those or cash out. I will never ever worry about whether it was money better invested in something else or how it related to anything else but fiat. I made a call with intent to try be early in an asset class and it was never about flipping a buck.


Trust me there is nothing complex about the concept of comparing the relative growth between btc and another project. In full understanding of that I am choosing other positions with the long term in site.

Real world, in that same scenario if you had bought btc instead of TRX you would've made more.

 

[Swa]

That is where this rally comes from.

The tether printing press.

Could be.

I have no plans to cash out anytime soon. I consider this a 10 year investment with potential gains far greater in alts than Bitcoin even if it does go to 100k. It's a judgment call and I never put money in I couldn't afford to lose. With that said I do hold some btc and it's doing nicely for me since I bought in at $4200 and again at 6k.

All fine and well. Personally I don't see BTC as an investment as I think it had its run from $1. Some altcoins I think will make it and at some point something will come along that will surpass BTC.

 

[Countcrypto]

Real world, in that same scenario if you had bought btc instead of TRX you would've made more.

They're all relatively paired to fiat. It's pretty simple stuff. Anyway I made a judgment that backing the utility tokens long term was going to be the bigger gainer than what btc was offering in January and I am not interested in selling anything in this sode of crypto I buy once I took a chance on it until that use case plays out. Speculating not trading. Happy to day trade btc though which was my main reason for getting some.

 

[Swa]

In fiat, not bitcoin. Just as I assess bitcoin in today's fiat value.

To do differently is to add a step and arrive at the same very conclusion. They all correlate to each other proportionally.

Ok but this isn't about you but rather the market. Most alts seem to be up because the BTC value is up and alts haven't adjusted in their BTC value yet. Most of the market values and trades alts with BTC so USD values are less relevant here.

This is what we've been trying to explain here. If BTC dips again then those same alts will lose value again because they never had an independent value gain or even if BTC doesn't dip those alts can slowly lose value in USD terms.

 

[John Tempus]

It fiat and market cap terms they are not losing value. I mostly own altcoins and the past few months I have more than doubled my money. I believe in the projects long term so that's neither here nor there for me. Btc rising in price is of course a net benefit to bringing interest and credibility to crypto. Had I been better off selling into bitcoin for more gains short term? In many cases yes, but I am happy with the prices I bought the alts at and I don't think I will be able to buy them back again at that. Rather instead I've used new funds to buy btc. I am a long term investor not a trader.


I don't think any alt is going to challenge btc for what btc does. But there are plenty of other applications for crypto than a currency type store of value.

You dont see to understand or deliberately dont want to grasp the facts.

Just because it is gaining USD value doesnt mean the asset itself is actually growing as you are implying. They are all gaining in USD value due to BTC/USD going up faster than these altcoins are losing their BTC trading value.

Since January 1 , 2019 in the top50 the only coins that would have performed better than BTC on USD net gain is LTC/BNB and 4 other totally ****/low liquidity/probably wont last very long coins in the top50.

Any other altcoin value that you had on January 1, 2019 would have shown a net loss in BTC terms which means its senseless to keep holding on to them if they are gaining USD at half the rate of BTC gaining USD.

You could argue your altcoin whatever it might be is worth more today than January 1st (assuming we are using that price as our starting point with all things equal) the fact remains that your altcoin losing its BTC purchasing power if BTC drop it will have 2-3x worse outcome on the Altcoin since it did not keep up its BTC purchasing power.

So ask yourself this, if BTC does any kind of correction to test 9k or even 8k tomorrow are you willing to take 2-3x greatest percentage loss on your USD value for whatever altcoins you are holding on to than just being in BTC itself ?

Altcoin season that we experienced in late 2017 had altcoins outperform BTC in most of the major altcoins at the time which mean it kept its value beyond the BTC crash simply because its BTC purchasing power kept steady or even increased even after BTC collapse from $20k down to $13k at the time.

 

[Countcrypto]

Ok but this isn't about you but rather the market. Most alts seem to be up because the BTC value is up and alts haven't adjusted in their BTC value yet. Most of the market values and trades alts with BTC so USD values are less relevant here.

This is what we've been trying to explain here. If BTC dips again then those same alts will lose value again because they never had an independent value gain or even if BTC doesn't dip those alts can slowly lose value in USD terms.

That's way too binary. There are good use cases for alts as utility tokens which is such a new concept we won't see any fruit for possibly years to come. As purely for the markets alts market cap has gone up so that's all we need to say to settle that.

 

[Countcrypto]

You dont see to understand or deliberately dont want to grasp the facts.

Just because it is gaining USD value doesnt mean the asset itself is actually growing as you are implying. They are all gaining in USD value due to BTC/USD going up faster than these altcoins are losing their BTC trading value.

Since January 1 , 2019 in the top50 the only coins that would have performed better than BTC on USD net gain is LTC/BNB and 4 other totally ****/low liquidity/probably wont last very long coins in the top50.

Any other altcoin value that you had on January 1, 2019 would have shown a net loss in BTC terms which means its senseless to keep holding on to them if they are gaining USD at half the rate of BTC gaining USD.

You could argue your altcoin whatever it might be is worth more today than January 1st (assuming we are using that price as our starting point with all things equal) the fact remains that your altcoin losing its BTC purchasing power if BTC drop it will have 2-3x worse outcome on the Altcoin since it did not keep up its BTC purchasing power.

So ask yourself this, if BTC does any kind of correction to test 9k or even 8k tomorrow are you willing to take 2-3x greatest percentage loss on your USD value for whatever altcoins you are holding on to than just being in BTC itself ?

Altcoin season that we experienced in late 2017 had altcoins outperform BTC in most of the major altcoins at the time which mean it kept its value beyond the BTC crash simply because its BTC purchasing power kept steady or even increased even after BTC collapse from $20k down to $13k at the time.

What does it matter? If I trade that alt to btc at any point the fiat value is correlated.

 

[John Tempus]

That's way too binary. There are good use cases for alts as utility tokens which is such a new concept we won't see any fruit for possibly years to come. As purely for the markets alts market cap has gone up so that's all we need to say to settle that.

No one here even referenced use cases. We are simply attempting to point out to you that your idea of altcoins recovering right now is misplaced compared to BTC.

No matter how you want to slice it, Altcoins are cringing onto BTC rally success right now and good luck if this BTC pump slows down or correct, those altcoins will at minimum see a 2x loss greater than BTC loss if you want to reference the USD potential.

 

[John Tempus]

What does it matter? If I trade that alt to btc at any point the fiat value is correlated.

Oh god nevermind. You dont grasp economics or the actual facts I am pointing out.

Nor do you have the ability to realize what we are discussing, just keep doing your thing and live in whatever pretend world that might be.

Reality is against your logic unfortunately.

I thought this thread had some purpose of educating people but with you its a lost cause.

PS. If you gained fewer purchasing power against BTC with your altcoin, when you trade it in for BTC you would have LESS BTC , you wont suddenly make up for the months you lost out on while your altcoin BTC purchasing power tanked. Let that sink in just for a few days before you try and contemplate that.

 

[saor]

What does it matter? If I trade that alt to btc at any point the fiat value is correlated.

If this your argument / reasoning - it's being sufficiently countered over the last few pages (including examples). Not sure why you're still insisting on this was of thinking about value.

 

[Swa]

That's way too binary. There are good use cases for alts as utility tokens which is such a new concept we won't see any fruit for possibly years to come. As purely for the markets alts market cap has gone up so that's all we need to say to settle that.

And I never disagreed with that. Fact however is that right now alts in the top 50 are down and clinging to BTC for life support. That's like trading on Luno from 2007 to now and claiming that because the Rand lost 50% value you made 100% but meanwhile you're still down 25% in BTC so it would have been better to keep and not trade it. But John Tempus is right here. You don't understand these concepts so it's pointless. Just hope you don't lose out on all your alts if BTC tanks.