Border troops won't be honoured

xtermin8or said:
It is a sad indictement on our society, that twelve years after democracy, it seems the problems of the minority are still prioritised as the problems of the nation
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It's called minority rights.
Minority rights, as applying to ethnic, religious or linguistic minorities and indigenous peoples, are an integral part of international human rights law.
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Why is the masses scared of loosing their cultural identity? Is it the minority that is forcing them, or is it their own government doing it? Who have more power?

What you are implying, with your comments, is that all other cultures should not exist anymore, simply because they are not a majority, and that bringing up these minority cultures, as an issue, is wrong. Well it might not mean much to you what the culture of a minority are, but I'm sure it's important to the minority.

The quote from Sorote
We do not ignore the role they played, and we will allow the people of our land to debate the matter. South Africans must say if they think that (these soldiers) should be honoured.
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It's nice words, but how are there going to be a debate? Is everybody going to be invited to attend meetings in community halls? Not very practicle having a nationwide debate. Voting on it won't mean anything as the minority will just be outvoted (it's why they are called a minority).
 
As mentioned in the Voortrekker Monument thread, i say let them build this "ANC-park" and honour all their ANC brothers and be done with it. If it saves another airport from being renamed or another Mandela street appearing, then i'm all for it.

That's exactly what the Voortekker Monument is for [for afrikaners], and if that's not enough i'm sure nothing stops the Afrikaners from building another one.

In the end what i think "scares" the ANC/govt more is how much the Afrikaner still participates and visits "their" monuments [i.e. Voortrekker Monument]. Especially on days like the 16th, i think Afrikaners totally ignores the day the ANC tried to "overwrite" and STILL celebrates the ORIGINAL day [slag van bloed rivier] at the ORIGINAL monument.

I think the ANC even took a shot at the Vroue-monument in Bloem not so long ago as well [trying to bring in some sort of blackness to it, even though the monument is all about the women and children who died in concentration camps...]. So based on that, it's BETTER for them to build their OWN monument rather than tarnish the existing ones.

So i sense clearly a bit of spite from the govt here, aren't they even building this right NEXT DOOR to the Voortrekker monument? How's that for trying to stroke your own ego?
 
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I don't see the problem here. How could you expect them to honour people who fought against them and their ideals at the time?

It's a bit childish to complain about it now. I don't see many zulu's or xhosa's being honoured at the Voortrekker or anyone complaining about that?

diabolus: You posting really does show how you feel doesn't it... It's called Freedom Park and it is meant to honour those who fought for Freedom. The Angloa war was never fought for freedom. Whether it was right or wrong is not the point. They fought to defend their ideals not for freedom.

I think putting it next to the Voortrekker is a good move, it creates a tourism center which can help the community. Stop being so paranoid and enjoy it.

Oh and how do you bring blackness to something? Seriously....
 
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HosstheBoss said:
These “evil” individuals that died on the border were young guys, conscripted to the military by the previous government and sent to the border. Just because they where “on the other side” doesn’t mean they don’t deserve respect. Their deaths were not by choice and that what makes it truly tragic.
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The vast majority of German soldiers except for the Gestapo and two SS divisions formed from camp guards were not Jew killers or Nazi party members but just ordinary citizens.

But this does not change the fact that they fought for an utterly morally corrupt regime in the conflict and share the blame for having allowed the Nazi's and their ideas to come to power in the first place.
 
GavinMannion said:
The Anglo war was never fought for freedom. Whether it was right or wrong is not the point. They fought to defend their ideals not for freedom.
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As far as can remember the Boer wars where fought, because the Boers wanted to rule over themselves. The reason they left the Cape colonies was to get away from the british. So, it was fought for freedom. Freedom from oppression under english rule.
 
diabolus: You posting really does show how you feel doesn't it... It's called Freedom Park and it is meant to honour those who fought for Freedom. The Anglo war was never fought for freedom.
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Err. sure i grant the ANC that. The Voortrekker Monument is also obviously one sided , which is why i grant the ANC their right to build monuments and honour -their- people...its just the way they are selling this to everyone that bugs me [it's not a "neutral" monument, but its being sold as a "unifying" monument while it's not].

As i've said, rather build new monuments/towns/cities and honour people that way than renaming/changing existing ones.

Whether it was right or wrong is not the point. They fought to defend their ideals not for freedom.
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What exactly is the difference between fighting for "freedom" and fighting to defend your "ideals" ? Last i checked that IS the definition of fighting for freedom ?? ..Or are we in an area where "defending your freedom" versus "fighting to get freedom" needs to be honoured differently?


Freedom, independence, liberty refer to an absence of undue restrictions and an opportunity to exercise one's rights and powers. Freedom emphasizes the opportunity given for the exercise of one's rights, powers, desires, or the like..
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Oh and how do you bring blackness to something? Seriously....
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By removing/deleting/overwriting the white....i'm surprised you didnt caught that one ;)
 
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diabolus said:
What exactly is the difference between fighting for "freedom" and fighting to defend your "ideals" ? Last i checked that IS the definition of fighting for freedom ?? [define freedom.....]. Just because one fought "outwards" [protecting from something coming in] versus fighting "inwards" [pushing an existing threat out] doesn't mean you are not fighting for freedom?
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The difference is quite simple. If you are oppressed you fight for freedom, if you are oppressing you fight for your ideals.

You know where the BIG difference is evident?

South Africa invaded Angola in support of UNITA
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http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/angola/Angl998-03.htm

They where defending their ideals in another country. There is a tenuous link to the Nazi party here. Germany invaded Poland in defense of their ideals.

If SA had been invaded then they would have been fighting for freedom, but since they invaded someone else's country you cannot say they where fighting for freedom for themselves.
 
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Aaah no wonder much confusion stemmed :D Fair enough, difference between Angola and the Anglo-boer war :D
 
Nod said:
As far as can remember the Boer wars where fought, because the Boers wanted to rule over themselves. The reason they left the Cape colonies was to get away from the british. So, it was fought for freedom. Freedom from oppression under english rule.
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Yes, and that's why those who fought in the Anglo-Boer war, the two world wars and the freedom struggle are being honoured - but can you really honour people who were trying to keep freedom from the people

as Gavin pointed out - during my last visit to the Voortrekker Monument - I didn't see a statue of Dingaan at the entrance, now did I ?
 
Hey don't paint me with the brush. Their should never be a statue of Dingaan or Shaka or any other warrior at the Voortrekker. It is a perfectly 'ugly' monument as it is..

I only say Ugly because I don't think it is a architectural masterpiece. I think with Freedom park being next door future school trips must go to both monuments and have a discussion such as this to explain to the children exactly what happened in the past.

I don't believe anything should ever be hidden, just as much as I don't believe the angola fighters should be put on a wall with people they fought against.

If someone wants to honour those soldiers, put your own thing up. Not in the Voortrekker or Freedom park though. Next door if you like :D
 
Nod said:
Why is the masses scared of loosing their cultural identity? Is it the minority that is forcing them, or is it their own government doing it? Who have more power?

What you are implying, with your comments, is that all other cultures should not exist anymore, simply because they are not a majority, and that bringing up these minority cultures, as an issue, is wrong. Well it might not mean much to you what the culture of a minority are, but I'm sure it's important to the minority.
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My point is that too many people in this country - black and white - are scared of losing their culture, language etc. Cultural education is done at home, speak your leanguage at home, it's because as South Africans we are too lazy to teach our cultures to our children, and expect to sit back and let government and schools take care of what is essentially our responsibility

Once again people have missed my point - maybe I should explain things a little more, I - perhaps wrongly - believed that people on this forum are educated - after 12 years of democracy only certain voices are heard - and small issues like culture, language, and whose name goes on a wall are made a priority by the nation, not the government, the nation - and only from one side, mainly the Afrikaaner - this is whats sad, is that although we have a democracy, the Afrikaaner still has the loudest voice

Maybe alot of it has to do with the fact that the media is still mainly white Afrikaans controlled
 
Yes

antowan said:
I seriously think the threat of communism is underplayed. IMO there was a real communist threat during the latter part of Apartheid. There still is, but the major communist power then (USSR) isn't around to fund weapons proliferation. That doesn't mean they didn't win... Time will tell where we end up in SA.

As a patriot, I would say communism or overdriven socialism will kill this country if it gets a foothold in the economic sphere. It is represented in politics.
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I agree Antowan. I hear alot of people with theories about the US funding of foreign wars and how it's wrong. Please don't tell me that the communists had Africa's best at heart. They just couldn't capitalise (sic) on the victory since they had pretty much dissolved themselves at the time. Look at how their own regimes have managed their people - some of the poorest in the world.
 
tibby.dude said:
... they certainly did not contribute anything to freedom in S.A so I don't see why we should honor them in Freedom Park as well..
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And Tibby - by your own admission, you are all for self preservation, so don't make like you are different and contributed to the freedom in SA other than with your mouth.
 
The difference is quite simple. If you are oppressed you fight for freedom, if you are oppressing you fight for your ideals.
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Ok, yes, good explanation. My rational thinking got a bit clouded between the "Rename Potchefstroom" , "Change the Voortrekker Monument" , "Non-African vs. African" and certain postings from a guy called Sipho threads .
 
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Why is it that people insist on equating education with intelligence. I'm assuming from your statements that you are educated Xterm (otherwise why would you be so insistent that people who don't agree with you are not?). Yet you make some silly statements in your very own reply.

after 12 years of democracy only certain voices are heard
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So the majority of this country is completely unheard? Really? Can you really, honestly believe that?

small issues like culture, language, and whose name goes on a wall are made a priority by the nation
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Culture is a small issue? Wait a minute... isn't that what people fought to defend? Yes, I believe it is. As well as this, MyADSL does not represent the entire Nation of South Africa.

and only from one side, mainly the Afrikaaner
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Who here has said they are Afrikaans? I'm not and yet I still don't want to see our Nation's history be dragged down to be replaced by the new history writers.

this is whats sad, is that although we have a democracy, the Afrikaaner still has the loudest voice
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If the Afrikaaner still had the loudest voice, apartheid would probably still be in effect. As with my previous point, the majority of the country has the loudest voice.

I won't mention the numerous grammatical/language errors as I'm sure I will have made at least one. I'm sure you will have picked up on all of them as an educated person yourself.
 
own and control are two different things, the media industry has a long way to go before senior management are representative of the demographics of the country
 
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