Border troops won't be honoured

[jabulani]

and alas I am further led to believe it was said by he great man himself after capturing the SA contingent of the 8th Army.....he subsequently released them for not having enough rations to feed them properly, for them just to return to the arena after rearming etc

And in which particular battle did Rommel capture "the SA contingent"? Have you even the vaguest idea what SA units were in the 8th Army?

 

[marine1]

http://home.adelphia.net/~dryan67/orders/sa.html

 

[IgortheAgro]

wotever..........VIVA Dankie Tannie VIVA. (for those that don't understand, history will reveal all in time............, as it will the future)

 

[HosstheBoss]

And in which particular battle did Rommel capture "the SA contingent"? Have you even the vaguest idea what SA units were in the 8th Army?

Wish I could answer that for you, my granddad was captured there, and sent as a POW to Italy and then through to Germany for the remainder of the war. I don't know the details but I have a book somewhere written by a member of his regiment that was also captured; If only I could find it and scan it

 

[Rooinek]

wotever..........VIVA Dankie Tannie VIVA. (for those that don't understand, history will reveal all in time............, as it will the future)[/QUOT

The argument got lost somewhere amid the "I was there and it meant something" history lesson and the "go mate" cheers.

I am very sorry, and feel so sad to tell you the truth. My brother, YOU WERE USED BY A VERY EVIL GOVERNMENT. That's the simple truth. But rest assured that it will never happen again!!!!!!!

 

[Albereth]

If SA had been invaded then they would have been fighting for freedom, but since they invaded someone else's country you cannot say they where fighting for freedom for themselves.

Best form of defence is attack - look at Israel in the 6 day war. They most certainly did not remain within their borders whilst defending themselves and their freedom.

But frankly the whole Cuban thing is just politics. Just trying to give credibility to Cuba when everyone knows that the USA has decided they don't exist (no recognition).

I am very certain that every Cuban and SADF soldier would prefer not to have their name on any wall - they would rather be alive.

But not to honour some of the dead makes a mockery of what the park is about - and that is the reconciliation. There is supposed to be a cleansing of the spirit and the dream - but we manage to turn it into a park of punitive retribution.

The Voortrekker monument was built and paid for by volunteers to honour their heroes, their tragedy. The Freedom Park is being paid for with our money. Surely we (speaking as a white) should have our heroes and tragedies included?

Furthermore the park is supposed to become a hub of Pan African knowledge and learning - how it could ever purport to be a place of learning if it falsely disclaims the role of some of South Africa's sons and daughters on the altar of political expediency?

Oh, and not everyone would ther name on a wall - there isn't enough space and some places are being left blank - I think there are about 75000 names out of about 120000 places. Yet Auschwitz (I think) manages to get the names of some 4 million people in their memorial.

But as I said before, who really wants their name on a wall?

 

[BTTB]

Wish I could answer that for you, my granddad was captured there, and sent as a POW to Italy and then through to Germany for the remainder of the war. I don't know the details but I have a book somewhere written by a member of his regiment that was also captured; If only I could find it and scan it

Snap.

My granddad on my mothers side also spent quite a few years in a POW Camp during WWII after being captured in North Africa by the Germans.
The difference is he spent those years in Italy from what I was told.

 

[IgortheAgro]

wotever..........VIVA Dankie Tannie VIVA. (for those that don't understand, history will reveal all in time............, as it will the future)[/QUOT

The argument got lost somewhere amid the "I was there and it meant something" history lesson and the "go mate" cheers.

I am very sorry, and feel so sad to tell you the truth. My brother, YOU WERE USED BY A VERY EVIL GOVERNMENT. That's the simple truth. But rest assured that it will never happen again!!!!!!!

As was said in earlier threads, it was an unsustainable policy and situation...., but this is ackowledged in hindsight. However, we were expected to fight for the govt of the day and that is what those that died did, ... for a cause they believed in, irrespective if they were right or wrong ideologies or principles, but at the time they were percieved to be the only solution available.

The idea behind this god forsaken wall smacks of punitive measures, against a far superior soldier by the unvictorious. I wonder how many of the names of those that disappeared in the punishment camps like Quattro etc in Angola will be present at the unveiling.

As I said before, let them get on with the wall, they can distort local history as they please to align it to BS policies, but for the rest of the world.............BS wont baffle brains or fact. History will not be distorted to suit the present regime and their cohorts.

Knowing my fallen brothers in arms and what we stood and fought for, I am sure they would not want their names alongside those that are proposed to adorn the wall. These boys (and they were only boys) were a breed apart and should be respected for this.........., besides as said before why celebrate their passing, they are remembered in our hearts and thoughts........., where no policy can dictate how we mourn for them.

 

[StrongTurd]

Believe me, i doubt there is an ex SADF who is not proud of being part of one of the finest fighting forces the world has ever seen or to have set foot in Africa (just ask the old desert fox-Rommel..."give me a batallion of SA soldiers and i will take the world"), we were and still are well respected and revered internationally as professional soldeirs, without fear of fighting for our convictions......and hey ho! as the military history books will show ... us as the only conventional army to win a guerilla war even though heavily out numbered and out gunned by several puppet armies, their masters and some hangers on's.

Let them name one contact, skirmish or battle that they won or where they inflicted more casualties on us compared to their own losses, which on every ocassion that we met in the arena were substantial on their part - why would we want to be associated with this scourge (terrorists, freedom fighters...mass murderers, perpetrators of genocide....what the difference) of Africa and some old **** hole of an island just off America.

Why don't we talk the people of Rwanda, Burundi, Congo and Darfur to name but a few, maybe even those closer to home, the peoples of Zimbabwe, Mozambique and Angola, about what they think of freedom fighters and what they stand and are renowned for. If I was Mr Wall Erector and Co, I would want to distance myself from this self styled title that they relish in and hold so dear to their hearts.

Brilliant!

 

[OhGats]

For those of you that do not know, there are 2 honour rolls for our dead at
http://www.southafricawargraves.org/
http://www.justdone.co.za/ROH/

and there is also the Coomonwealth War Graves Commission
http://www.cwgc.org/

Much more fitting than the freedom park wall of shame

 

[IgortheAgro]

http://www.int.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=15&art_id=vn20070217094126529C454250

The above article refers..........., Mr Pallo JORDAN, the biggest difference between the two is that, if it had been SADF soldiers in Hitlers army, you would be speaking German now, not the usual **** that spews from your and the likes of you. also the Allies at the time managed to route Hitler, you and your Allies cant say the same about the SADF, I am afraid.

with ignorant a..........holes like you in power, no wonder the country is in such a **** state, there no hope for the likes of ordinary law abiding citizens who only want to feel safe and secure in their own homes, and dont giv a monkeys about this crap.

How about spending the heavily taxed and hard earned money on proper social development and upliftments of all. WHEN IS THE GRAVY TRAIN GOING TO DERAIL.

 

[Nanfeishen]

My granddad on my mothers side also spent quite a few years in a POW Camp during WWII after being captured in North Africa by the Germans.
The difference is he spent those years in Italy from what I was told.

The most likely time was during the battle of Gazala:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gazala
or the Seige of Tobruk where the South African 2nd Division was captured:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_2nd_Division

Google -- South Africa, Tobruk, Western Desert, some good links.

 

[Alan]

My grandfather was never captured .

Although he did come very close to being blown to bits by a 500 pound bomb

 

[xtermin8or]

"If Dr. Pallo Jordan, Minister of Arts and Culture's views as to whether the
names of dead South African soldiers of the former SADF should appear on the
wall of remembrance at Freedom Park, is at all representative of the views
of the ANC government, it will be senseless to continue to try and reach a
compromise about this issue. Before the memory of dead soldiers from the
previous regime is humiliated any further, the Freedom Front Plus proposes
that a different wall be erected at another venue in remembrance of these
soldiers. This includes soldiers from all of the different racial groups",

Freedom Front Plus Leader, Dr Pieter Mulder via e-mail

 

[IamCanadian]

One thing that can be said from a PURELY military perspective, leaving out the politics of the past, is that the SADF was a much better army in the past than it is today. It was run better and was admired for it's abilities the world over.

Sadly it is now just a rag tag aids infested shadow of it's former self.

Umk.onto Wisizwe or Swapo couldn't hold a candle to the SADF militarily.

Flamers. Flame on. Just keep the politics out of it.

 

[Kommedoor]

Are you saying the former SADF were superior because it was run and staffed by White people?

 

[Skeptik]

Are you saying the former SADF were superior because it was run and staffed by White people?

I don't think he said that. What would your reason be, asssuming the statement is true.

 

[Kommedoor]

The answer appears to be glaringly obvious (ie. White vs Black , then vs now). Would be an interesting exercise to compare things like funding, dedication, discipline, training, culture, equipment etc.

 

[IamCanadian]

Are you saying the former SADF were superior because it was run and staffed by White people?

We served with blacks in the border areas. They made up a portion of the SADF and were effective soldiers.

Getting into a discussion about black leaders versus white leaders and who is better is not my objective.

The question is why is the SANDF in such a poor state. I leave that up to your own interpretation.

 

[Skeptik]

I think now the SADF is just a job, whereas before it was a vocation.

So they try and do little as possible. Some were even speculating that they joined to get the medical benefits (for HIV).