Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment

ZimboBoy

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Good day to you all.

I am doing a project for Business Management and I have to take part in a debate on "BBBEE is the way for social reform in South Africa". I am on the opposing side saying it is NOT the way forward.

I know that this internet forum is very opinionated and generally clued up on affairs such as these. It would be so nice if you could help by giving me some disadvantages of the system based on the People, Economy and Sustainable development.

Much appreciated
 
Good day to you all.

I am doing a project for Business Management and I have to take part in a debate on "BBBEE is the way for social reform in South Africa". I am on the opposing side saying it is NOT the way forward.

I know that this internet forum is very opinionated and generally clued up on affairs such as these. It would be so nice if you could help by giving me some disadvantages of the system based on the People, Economy and Sustainable development.

Much appreciated

Wow...the topic has so many points and is so complex that I do not believe we fully understand the negative consequences. Off the top of my head.

- If the best person doesn't get the job, then essentially productivity is lower than what it would have been if the best got the job. Lowered productivity = less supply relative to demand = higher prices.
You get just do a whole thing on that.

Then there is the fact that it is blatant racism, which breeds resentment, and that coupled together with people not getting jobs, means people are inclined to go overseas to ply their trade. This increases the skills gap, which increases the wage gap, which leads to resentment from the poor, which means there are calls for greater measures to help the "previously disadvanted" to get their piece of the pie. Which tends to have serious political implications and the complexity of politics on the business world and economy is too complex for a single essay. But the power of unions and low-income earners to dictate policy has a MASSIVE impact on business and the economy.

There is the fact whilst broad based BEE is suppossed to help the little guy, in the end only a few people get really rich and the masses suffer. So you could talk about there is no serious method of actually putting BBBEE into practice, unless the focus is on educating people properly (not just passing them through the system) so that they earn jobs and don't just get jobs through some entitlement program.

BBBEE increases the costs of doing business (high 2 people to do the job of one person), which increases the costs of goods for everyone in a general sense.

BBBEE creates a social divide between races and business and government.

...there are many others and most of these have effects and consequences far beyond what I have mentioned.
 
Send me a notification and I shall assist you in both pro's and con's via Email. BEE is a very touchy subject. WilD_CaT touched on some. There is also good in BEE but not in the way it is being done.
 
Wild_Cat has given you the most salient points already, I would expand on those.
 
BBBEE increases the costs of doing business (high 2 people to do the job of one person), which increases the costs of goods for everyone in a general sense.
You confuse economic empowerment with affirmative action... I would take the rest of this poster's advice if I was you Mr OP. This is exactly the wrong place to look for logical well reasoned cons on BBBEE. Everyone responds emotionally as demonstrated by wild cat here.
 
You confuse economic empowerment with affirmative action... I would take the rest of this poster's advice if I was you Mr OP. This is exactly the wrong place to look for logical well reasoned cons on BBBEE. Everyone responds emotionally as demonstrated by wild cat here.

I'm sorry. What are you smoking?

The government instituted BEE as follows, you can only do business with the state if you have BEE credentials and you get it by hiring those who are designated as "previously disadvantaged" over white people and by doing business with BEE accredited people. (Different scorecards)

Thus you frequently have a choice as a business, hire 1 well educated white guy who can do the job and potentially LOSE state business and suppliers/customers, or hire "previously disadvantaged people", who may not be as good, or who may need able to do that job, in order to get the state business and get business from suppliers and customers.

It is business. It is not emotional. The reason why it happens is because of money.

"Critics argue that BEE's aim was to attempt to create equality of the workforce of South Africa as a whole by enforcing the advantaging of the previously disadvantaged and the disadvantaging the previously advantaged. This results in businesses having to consider the social background of any potential applicant instead of making decisions purely based on qualifications and experience (News Daily, May 24, 2004)." - Wiki

The term affirmative action refers to policies that take race, ethnicity, physical disabilities, military career, sex, or a person's parents' social classHeinz-Peter Meidinger: "Berliner Schullotterie". Profil 07-08/2009 (August 24th. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action
 
You confuse economic empowerment with affirmative action... I would take the rest of this poster's advice if I was you Mr OP. This is exactly the wrong place to look for logical well reasoned cons on BBBEE. Everyone (including myself) responds emotionally as demonstrated by wild cat here.

There fixed it for you! :D
 
I put some info for you in reply to your private message. Shout if you need more help.
 
I'm sorry. What are you smoking?

The government instituted BEE as follows, you can only do business with the state if you have BEE credentials and you get it by hiring those who are designated as "previously disadvantaged" over white people and by doing business with BEE accredited people. (Different scorecards)
You're confused BROAD based BEE goes further than what's still stuck in your head. The idea for the change is that everyone complains about only a few politically connected benefiting...

Maybe the OP should have started by defining BBBEE cause now he's let you all go off in a tangent. BBBEE is more related to companies giving stakes in their companies to the previously disadvantaged. The government wants beneficiaries to be more BROAD BASED!
 
There is research done on BEE and psychological contract. The conclusion of the research state that that BEE is destroying the psychological contract. This leads to higher AA employee turnover. Pm me and I will send it to you
 
You're confused BROAD based BEE goes further than what's still stuck in your head. The idea for the change is that everyone complains about only a few politically connected benefiting...

Maybe the OP should have started by defining BBBEE cause now he's let you all go off in a tangent. BBBEE is more related to companies giving stakes in their companies to the previously disadvantaged. The government wants beneficiaries to be more BROAD BASED!

I know perfectly well the intended difference in definition of BEE and BBBEE. It is a technical difference in definition, the implementation rarely differs in practice and the consequences are the same.

Its not like BEE is intended to make a few people rich only, its intentions are identical to so called "broad based". I think this "broad based" is a propoganda term used to help create the perception that BEE is intended to help the majority not a minority.

The simple reality is that there are implications on businesses. Being BEE compliant means you will get more business, bigger customer base, bigger supplier base etc. which is all good for business as oppossed to being not BEE compliant.

However that doesn't mean BEE is good for business, in the absence of BEE compliance legislation you would be able to do business with those people in any case, as there would be no restrictions/laws to prevent you from doing so.

So from an overall perspective, BEE isn't a positive thing. However in given the context of this country, the fact BEE is in place, it makes sense from a financial POV to be BEE compliant. If I had a company and I needed stat business or to deal with others who need state business then I would try be BEE compliant.
 
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I'm sorry. What are you smoking?

The government instituted BEE as follows, you can only do business with the state if you have BEE credentials and you get it by hiring those who are designated as "previously disadvantaged" over white people and by doing business with BEE accredited people. (Different scorecards)

Thus you frequently have a choice as a business, hire 1 well educated white guy who can do the job and potentially LOSE state business and suppliers/customers, or hire "previously disadvantaged people", who may not be as good, or who may need able to do that job, in order to get the state business and get business from suppliers and customers.

It is business. It is not emotional. The reason why it happens is because of money.

"Critics argue that BEE's aim was to attempt to create equality of the workforce of South Africa as a whole by enforcing the advantaging of the previously disadvantaged and the disadvantaging the previously advantaged. This results in businesses having to consider the social background of any potential applicant instead of making decisions purely based on qualifications and experience (News Daily, May 24, 2004)." - Wiki

The term affirmative action refers to policies that take race, ethnicity, physical disabilities, military career, sex, or a person's parents' social classHeinz-Peter Meidinger: "Berliner Schullotterie". Profil 07-08/2009 (August 24th. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action

Whoever mentioned "emotional' was spot-on:p. BEE is not just about hiring PDI's over PAI's, it involves a whole lot off things including achieving equality by giving PDI's preference (this means, of the two or more qualified applicants, hire the PDI one. Not just hire an unqualified IT Tech to be an IT Dir just cause he's black as you imply) , advancing PDI's (through mentoring/coaching etc), Bursaries & study loans etc, on the side of employment.

On the side of procurement it takes into account % of ownership & management by PDI's, procurement from BEE compliant companies, promotion of ppl with disabilities etc. So anyone who says BEE benefits the rich only is mistaken, yes to a large extent they benefit greatly (ie make large sums of money) whilst the rest benefit minimally which is just one of the problems; but, if company A has to have "X" percentage of PDI managers/owners and has to procure its goods from company B & C (which also has "X" percentage of PDI owners/managers & procures from company D&E) then everyone of those people PDI people benefit.

So yes its not benefiting as many as it should but your opinion is clearly not based on reason alone.
 
The thing with BBBEE and BEE is that intention has a nasty habit of running full tilt into the wall of practical implementation. What's intended is not always what the end result happens to be....
 
Whoever mentioned "emotional' was spot-on:p. BEE is not just about hiring PDI's over PAI's, it involves a whole lot off things including achieving equality by giving PDI's preference (this means, of the two or more qualified applicants, hire the PDI one. Not just hire an unqualified IT Tech to be an IT Dir just cause he's black as you imply) , advancing PDI's (through mentoring/coaching etc), Bursaries & study loans etc, on the side of employment.

On the side of procurement it takes into account % of ownership & management by PDI's, procurement from BEE compliant companies, promotion of ppl with disabilities etc. So anyone who says BEE benefits the rich only is mistaken, yes to a large extent they benefit greatly (ie make large sums of money) whilst the rest benefit minimally which is just one of the problems; but, if company A has to have "X" percentage of PDI managers/owners and has to procure its goods from company B & C (which also has "X" percentage of PDI owners/managers & procures from company D&E) then everyone of those people PDI people benefit.

So yes its not benefiting as many as it should but your opinion is clearly not based on reason alone.

You are misunderstanding me. If you have 2 exact candididates and you pick person B as you think they are the best fit for your organisation, and this person happens to be black, the BEE has no effect. It had no influence on your decision so it wouldn't have mattered.

BEE only has any effect if it causes someone to take person B over person A because of race/gender. In which case it meant that you didn't choose the person who you as the employer believed would be best (In the absence of BEE)

Mentoring or coaching is a very important concept or business, but if you are just doing it in order to train your PDI's and it wasn't par for the course then BEE increases the costs of hiring that PDI. So it increases the costs of doing business.

It is the same thing for bursaries or study loans, if you would've given the person a bursury anyway, then does BEE have any implications? No. If you are only doing it as you feel it will enhance your BEE credentials, then you have increased the costs of employing that person.

Again for ownership. If some people get capital to start a business by virtue of a sound business plan etc. etc. then BEE has no effect. If however they get a loan due to their BEE credentials, then it can increase the costs of doing business for banks. If a white guy for example needs a BEE partner, then it increases the cost of doing business for him (As now he has to pay his BEE partner due to legislation) as it removes from his bottom line.

BEE only has ANY effect if it causes a person to choose A over B by virtue of race/gender. In that case there are winners and losers.

But the issue is not whether person A benefits at the expense of person B. That is obvious.

The issue does it have greater implications on the economy and he was asked for the cons (Against BEE).

I'm against any measure that increases the costs of hiring people, as it results in increases in unemployement (Standard supply/demand. Price goes up, demand drops)

Then there are the social/political implications which play a role on the economy as a whole. Something seen as a major problem in this country is the wage gap. BEE doesn't incentivise those with skills to stay here if they would lose out because of it. It incentivises them to leave. I don't think everyone will or wants to leave but it definately does have an impact.

This merely increases the skills gap and the wage gap is simply a result of that. The irony when it always comes to wage gap discussions is that "something must be done", particularly to higher income earners. Their salaries need to be capped or they need to be taxed more.

The wage gap is simply a sympton of the real problem which is skills shortages... BEE can possibly have an effect from both sides. It can force people to leave with their skills and it can also give others the oppertunity to gain skills. But if there are 2 jobs open, and person A gets a job over person B because of BEE. And person B gets the second opening, then demand met supply and you have no problem. Overall BEE hasn't any real effect other than the BEE candidate getting more than person B.

Which is just a transfer of wealth. But when person B cannot get that job, then you have lost out as a whole, as a more productive member of the economy has been replaced by a less productive member.

If it was good for business the market would've instituted BEE itself. It is really that simple. The fact that we need state involvement, menas that the market does not deem BEE as the best thing for it. Period.
 
It is possible for example that BEE allows faster transformation and the quicker things return to statistical means (Only 10% of positions are held by whites etc.) as a reflection of the demographic breakdown of society, then perhaps the quicker we can get over apartheid and the entitlement thinking and the power of the SACP, ANC Youth League and Cosatu will wain.

That is one positive, but it is offset by a number of negatives. I mean if most white people with skills left the country, that would have the same demographic effect, but I would hardly think this country will be more productive economically measured in the flawed GDP, but perhaps better off socially?

I don't know it depends on whom you speak to. Perhaps there are some people out there who want whites gone, then they would be happier. Others don't care about race, others won't be happy if the skills/capital leaves the country.

It really depends. At the end of the day there is no overall answer to cost/benefit of BEE as you cannot try measure these things from a utilitarian perspective.

If we try to look at an overall picture (And not just zero-sum the whole thing), it is more dificult to see how BEE has positive impacts on economic indicators that offset the negatives. It has certain social benefits, long-term but as to how those translate into better economic benefits, no one can know for sure.
 
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Good day to you all.

I am doing a project for Business Management and I have to take part in a debate on "BBBEE is the way for social reform in South Africa". I am on the opposing side saying it is NOT the way forward.

I know that this internet forum is very opinionated and generally clued up on affairs such as these. It would be so nice if you could help by giving me some disadvantages of the system based on the People, Economy and Sustainable development.

Much appreciated

Tokyo, is that you?
 
Pro's??
Sure - ONLY if you're a cadre carrying an ANC card who doesn't give a damn about his own people

Sorry to disappoint you, but I am white and very conservative. But also have some education to enable me to look beyond my immediate emotions. It is not what one does, but how you do it. The how has escaped the current regime’s impending greed emotions that made an f**k up of it for themselves and the future generations. It is going to take another 20 years to undo the current ANC Apartheid policy. Yes read it – the current ANC policy is the same as Apratheid – only this time the color of your money and not your skin.
 
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