Calcium battery

[Mars]

you just bluntly ignored fact, plain and simple should you use a silver calcium battery your alternator needs to charge at a higher rate too, knowing the difference between those batteries has got nothing to do with anything.

yes older cars draw less from the battery but that doesn't compensate for not having the required voltage in the first place.

@YoungRedNed replace the calcium batt with a normal willard lead acid battery and watch your problems disappear. my willard is going on 3 years now and the silver calcium in my Ford Fiesta is going on 6 years now..

Ive been in the battery/auto electrical business for 10 years, and do you think that your 3 years experience with 1 battery makes you an expert? I didn't ignore the fact, I addressed it. Here: Your statement is WRONG (as is wikipedia according to Bosch). The reason I ask you if you know the difference is to see if you understand that those things are relatively small changes in the total makeup of the battery. The battery still functions in the same way. Its still a chemical process that involves lead and acid. Those additives are there primarily to stop gassing.

What you take out, you need to put back. If you take less you need to put back less. Do you understand that? You can charge a silver calcium battery with 3 volts if you have enough time and you're not drawing anything at the same time.

Anyone who tells you that you can't use a silver calcium battery because your alternator does not charge enough is a moron.

Oh and by the way, ALL Willard (and Sabat) batteries are silver calcium. To run a totally separate line to make old tech is just too expensive (and plain stupid).

 

[Zuner]

Ive been in the battery/auto electrical business for 10 years, and do you think that your 3 years experience with 1 battery makes you an expert? I didn't ignore the fact, I addressed it. Here: Your statement is WRONG (as is wikipedia according to Bosch). The reason I ask you if you know the difference is to see if you understand that those things are relatively small changes in the total makeup of the battery. The battery still functions in the same way. Its still a chemical process that involves lead and acid. Those additives are there primarily to stop gassing.

What you take out, you need to put back. If you take less you need to put back less. Do you understand that? You can charge a silver calcium battery with 3 volts if you have enough time and you're not drawing anything at the same time.

Anyone who tells you that you can't use a silver calcium battery because your alternator does not charge enough is a moron.

Oh and by the way, ALL Willard (and Sabat) batteries are silver calcium. To run a totally separate line to make old tech is just too expensive (and plain stupid)

.

Yea I don't believe you, running a separate line to make "old" tech may cost a bit but it's a huge business and will still be very profitable, if they were all silver calcium batteries they would be marketed as such since that would bring in lots more interested customers.:sly:

 

[HapticSimian]

i have to disagree with everyone saying its the car, firstly the 1st battery died simply cause it was at the end of its life, 4 years is pretty decent. secondly the reson why the silver calcium battery lost charge slowly is cause your alternator is charging at to low a rate for calcium batteries. i while back i wanted to put a calcium battery in my 1999 Hyundai Accent but didnt cause of what i found then regarding charging voltage. Google it and see.

this is from wiki "Silver calcium batteries generally require more charging voltage (14.4 to 14.8 V) and may not be functional in older vehicles because their power generating systems (alternators) give lower voltages than those of modern vehicles. This also may occur with static chargers, because some fail to charge these batteries."

Yeah... no. This, also, from the same wiki page:

This article has multiple issues. Please help improve it or discuss these issues on the talk page.

• This article needs more links to other articles to help integrate it into the encyclopedia. (August 2013)
• This article is an orphan, as no other articles link to it. (August 2013)
• This article does not cite any references or sources. (August 2013)

Bit of a useless reference, frankly. And logically stupid to boot.

 

[Mars]

Yea I don't believe you, running a separate line to make "old" tech may cost a bit but it's a huge business and will still be very profitable, if they were all silver calcium batteries they would be marketed as such since that would bring in lots more interested customers.:sly:

You have no clue about business. Or about manufacturing. Go learn some and then come and debate.

 

[Former member 61586]

I tend to agree with Madman. But then I also agree with Zuner to a certain extent. I KNOW some batteries require certain charging voltages. Your AGM and Optima type batteries require a higher voltage to charge (properly). I know this becuase my CTEK battery charger has different modes for these batteries. In those modes the voltage is increased. Why would CTEK make a whole different mode which increases voltage for these batteries?

BUT, I also know that the higher voltage mode can also be used on normal batteries (those that are not AGM and optimas) in very cold weather conditions (-20 - 5 degrees celcius).

And I also, know that the AGMs and Optimas can be charged in the mode for "normal batteries" without adverse effects (that I am aware of). Optima however do not recommend this if it can be helped.

 

[Mr.Jax]

How often do you drive the car and for how long ?

IMO, 120 ma current draw when the car is switched off is a lot!

Your problem might just be that you don't drive often and/or you drive very short distances, especially with a 0.12A off current draw.

 

[Mars]

I tend to agree with Madman. But then I also agree with Zuner to a certain extent. I KNOW some batteries require certain charging voltages. Your AGM and Optima type batteries require a higher voltage to charge (properly). I know this becuase my CTEK battery charger has different modes for these batteries. In those modes the voltage is increased. Why would CTEK make a whole different mode which increases voltage for these batteries?

BUT, I also know that the higher voltage mode can also be used on normal batteries (those that are not AGM and optimas) in very cold weather conditions (-20 - 5 degrees celcius).

And I also, know that the AGMs and Optimas can be charged in the mode for "normal batteries" without adverse effects (that I am aware of). Optima however do not recommend this if it can be helped.

YES! AGM and Optima's are not standard batteries. All the other batteries I mentioned are flooded lead acid batteries, AGM the electrolyte is held in stasis and Optima's have a cylindrical cell. (could be AGM as well, depends on which one.)

 

[Zuner]

You have no clue about business. Or about manufacturing. Go learn some and then come and debate.

I may not know about the manufacturing process but I do know about business, and there is no reason to discard "old" tech that needs replacing more often than new tech it's that simple it's old but many people use it thus it's profitable..

 

[Mars]

I may not know about the manufacturing process but I do know about business, and there is no reason to discard "old" tech that needs replacing more often than new tech it's that simple it's old but many people use it thus it's profitable..

Do you understand the cost implications in building a whole new line vs upgrading the current one?

 

[Zuner]

Do you understand the cost implications in building a whole new line vs upgrading the current one?

Do you understand that there's many more cars using old tech batteries than new ones, needing replacing more often making it a much more profitable business who cares how much a production line costs when the profit margin is massive..

 

[HapticSimian]

Do you understand that there's many more cars using old tech batteries than new ones, needing replacing more often making it a much more profitable business who cares how much a production line costs when the profit margin is massive..

Dude, you're arguing with someone in the industry. Have you any idea how monumentally stupid you're making yourself appear?

 

[Mars]

Do you understand that there's many more cars using old tech batteries than new ones, needing replacing more often making it a much more profitable business who cares how much a production line costs when the profit margin is massive..

The older manufacturing techniques where less reliable and produced a less reliable battery and cost more to operate than the new ones. Why would you run a totally separate line to manufacture an obsolete item when the new product will work better in those older applications? Two lines means twice the labour, twice the machinery, twice the geography.
As time goes by the manufacturing line is upgraded piece by piece, each time making the line better and in turn the product better. They don't build a new line every time there is a change. Perhaps you dont realise the sheer scale of a manufacturing plant. One plant can easily take up a 3 or 4 city blocks.

I've already pointed out that the evolution of the battery from lead/antimony to hybrid to calcium to silver calcium (including a whole host of other changes that just happened without fanfare such as framed plates, polymer sleeves and plate strapping) where made to make the battery more reliable, reduce gassing and increase cranking. There is no actual "OLD TECH" and NEW TECH" as you keep referring to. The "Silver Calcium" is only one change in the whole evolution. Its not even the last change. Not even the second last. Silver calcium batteries where launched more than 8 years ago, and have been the norm in the market for the last 6 years. Manufacturers have demanded it as OE for their vehicles for as long.

And while the profit margin is large (for the manufacturer at least) its not massive. Lead is a commodity and South Africa does not produce any virgin lead itself. That means all lead needs to be imported and the price is linked both the rand dollar and the commodity price. It is therefore highly volatile and while lead is bought on a monthly basis, battery prices for South African batteries traditionally only go up once a year.

Battery Lecture over.
Im out.

 

[Zuner]

The older manufacturing techniques where less reliable and produced a less reliable battery and cost more to operate than the new ones. Why would you run a totally separate line to manufacture an obsolete item when the new product will work better in those older applications? Two lines means twice the labour, twice the machinery, twice the geography.
As time goes by the manufacturing line is upgraded piece by piece, each time making the line better and in turn the product better. They don't build a new line every time there is a change. Perhaps you dont realise the sheer scale of a manufacturing plant. One plant can easily take up a 3 or 4 city blocks.

I've already pointed out that the evolution of the battery from lead/antimony to hybrid to calcium to silver calcium (including a whole host of other changes that just happened without fanfare such as framed plates, polymer sleeves and plate strapping) where made to make the battery more reliable, reduce gassing and increase cranking. There is no actual "OLD TECH" and NEW TECH" as you keep referring to. The "Silver Calcium" is only one change in the whole evolution. Its not even the last change. Not even the second last. Silver calcium batteries where launched more than 8 years ago, and have been the norm in the market for the last 6 years. Manufacturers have demanded it as OE for their vehicles for as long.

And while the profit margin is large (for the manufacturer at least) its not massive. Lead is a commodity and South Africa does not produce any virgin lead itself. That means all lead needs to be imported and the price is linked both the rand dollar and the commodity price. It is therefore highly volatile and while lead is bought on a monthly basis, battery prices for South African batteries traditionally only go up once a year.

Battery Lecture over.
Im out.

Lol firstly you used the phrase "old tech" I only used it cause you did, secondly I do understand the sheer scale of a plant I live in sasolburg the plant is bigger than the town I'm no fool.. thirdly when a new car is sold from a dealer do they stop producing parts for the older model ? No they don't why you ask.. Great question! That's because there is a much bigger market for the older car parts than the new one and even though old, outdated and less reliable it's cheaper than buying a new car so people will buy parts making it profitable to continue production..

Well I'll have to agree to disagree with you on this one..

 

[OptimaJim]

Hello, I noticed your conversation involving our batteries and wanted to offer some assistance. YounRedNed, as Mr.Jax indicated, your issue appears to be directly related to the significant parasitic draw (120 milliamps) of your alarm system. I don't know the specifications for your battery, but a typical key-off load for a vehicle is probably in the range of 25 milliamps or so, depending on how complex a vehicle is from an electrical standpoint. If we were to assume conservatively that your battery has a capacity of 45 amps, that means a 120 milliamp draw will discharge your battery at a rate of 2.88 amps (.120 x 24 hours) per day. If you don't charge or maintain the battery at all, that means it will be totally discharged in just over two weeks (45/2.88).

Driving may put some energy back into the battery, but most alternators are designed to maintain batteries near a full state of charge, not recharge deeply-discharged batteries. Asking that task of an alternator can lead to a cycle of dead batteries and jump-starts, until either your battery or alternator fails. Changing batteries may mask this issue for a period of time, depending on your driving habits, but it will eventually manifest itself again.

As for the comments made regarding charging requirements for our batteries, they don't need any special treatment under normal conditions. We recommend alternator output of approximately 13.7-14.7 volts and battery charger settings for regular lead-acid batteries work just fine for Optimas (we don't recommend rates in excess of 10 amps).

Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.pinterest.com/optimabatteries

 

[Mars]

nice.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

Thanks for that OptimaJim,

My name is in print .

 

[YoungRedNed]

Jim McIlvaine, Thank you for taking the trouble to provide an informative and relevant comment on my battery problem. I was not sure if the parasitic current drawn on my car was a reason, but your clear analysis showed it was. This got me thinking about events that happened when my battery problem first surfaced. Digging back into my paperwork, I discovered the calcium battery was fitted in that same week I had a new ignition lock fitted - I had a break-in and they smashed the ignition lock trying to steal the car. The replacement ignition lock did not turn the clock off when the ignition key was removed. When that was sorted out the parasitic current dropped from 120ma to 22ma. Problem solved.

Jim, thank you once again.