Can the War on Terror Be Won?

Just like fighting crime in SA, the fight against terrorism will be an ongoing battle, because the alternatives are unacceptable.

Tony Blair [the west] isn't to blame for terrorism - Ten years ago [long before 9/11], in November 1997, 50 Swiss tourists rose early to visit the Valley of the Kings across the Nile from Luxor in Egypt. Suddenly from the hills came a group of Islamists. They shot, disembowelled and decapitated the tourists.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,2209123,00.html

It was just one of the many forerunners of 9/11 in 2001 in New York, 7/7 in 2005 in London or 11/M as the Spanish call the train bombings in Madrid in 2004. Today, as the killing in the name of extremist political Islamist ideology increases in tempo and intelligence agencies struggle to disarm those promised a passage to heaven if they blow themselves and others up, the earlier wave of militant Islamist killing can be overlooked.

One of the constant lies of the current debate over terrorism is that it is all the fault of George Bush and Tony Blair. The best-known Swiss in Britain today is Tariq Ramadan, the most interesting of Europe's political Islamists. He wrote recently that the 'invasion of Iraq, blind support for the insane policies of George Bush, British silence on the oppression of the Palestinians have a direct bearing on the deep discontent shared by many Muslims towards the West in general, and towards Britain in particular'.

Ramadan's views are standard tropes for many on the liberal-left in Europe. Not just the left. The new centre-right government in Poland wants to leave Iraq and David Cameron said that Britain should not drop the idea of intervention. But as the families of those killed a decade ago remember those dreadful murders on the Nile, can Bush and Blair be blamed as the inspirers of the killing of Swiss tourists? Or what in 1995 inspired the Paris Metro bombing which killed eight? The 1995 Islamist campaign of violence in France was financed from London by the Algerian Islamist fundamentalist Rachid Ramda. British ministers, lawyers and judges protected Ramda from French justice for a full decade. Finally in 2005, Ramda was sent back to face the justice he was long protected from. He has just been sentenced to life.

Then comes the argument that Osama bin Laden was, as London's mayor, Ken Livingstone, puts it 'a simple businessman until he met the CIA' which encouraged him to launch jihad in Afghanistan against the dying Soviet empire. But this does not explain why Islamists killed, in cold blood, Anwar Sadat, the courageous Egyptian president who went to the Knesset to talk peace with Israel long before Blair was in Parliament and before the Soviets arrived in Kabul.

So if we follow history's thread back we have to leave the contemporisation of the debate. Something deeper is going on. To discuss this in religious terms is repugnant for many. But history is full of faiths sanctioning political murders to advance a cause.

The violence of faith takes many forms. A university report has just been published on the material available in British mosques, Muslim schools and bookshops. It reveals a violent brew of anti-semitism, misogyny and homophobia which inculcates a loathing for fellow citizens who do not conform to the rules of Islamist ideologues.

The report scrupulously quotes extracts from books and pamphlets widely available in mosque bookshops. The response of the Muslim Council of Britain was to attack the research. Instead of calling on mosques to empty themselves of such hate material, the MCB called for the report to be ignored. This arrogant dismissal does no service to Muslims.

Some are trying to move forward. As a young militant, Tariq Ramadan made statements on Jews, gays and women which do not read well today. But at a recent debate he supported Israel's right to exist. Citing the example of Turkey's ruling Law and Development party which has its roots in political Islam, Ramadan held up the tantalising prospect of Islamist politics leaving behind its support for words and acts that have caused so much damage to Muslims over the past century.

It is not too late. Ramadan's language is elusive, debating with him is like trying to pick up mercury with a fork. At an Oxford University seminar he is the acceptable face of Islamism. But until the hate material is removed from sale and democratically accountable Muslim leaders emerge to contest the theologians of terrorism, anti-semitism, misogyny and homophobia in Riyadh, Cairo, Qatar and Tehran, the birth of democratic European Islamist politics is unlikely.
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trek_mambo said:
The question should be this... What is America's Motive?
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I don't know, you seem like a pretty smart guy so you figure it out. All you've got so far is a bunch of facts and some conjecture.

trek_mambo said:
America is evil, and the war in the middle east is nothing new, they have been doing this for years... so if you support them then you need to justify every single war they have fought... personally I don't support people who claim to be Blessed by God yet plunder innocent children who speak a funky language.
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I again call "Bravo Sierra." You're right, the war in Middle East is nothing new, it began severla thousand years ago in Sumeria if memory serves. America is protecting its interests (It's called oil) but that hardly makes them evil. Terror comes into play here but that is a whole nother story. Let's just say some people are making noises about where the WMDs REALLY are, and it ain't Iraq.

Also, the percentage of people who claim their country has some sort of God-ordained task in the world is pathetically few. The percentage of those in office is so small as to be unmentionable. (Tho GW may in face be one of them.)

This is my bottom line on Iraq:

The American People were may or may not bave been mislead about the situation in Iraq before the invasion. However, that hardly justifies pulling out now and leaving a mess that the U.S. created. You think you enjoy hating them now, but wait till you can gloat over the mess they leave behind if they do as you say and leave now.
 
Have you guys ever heard of the Northwoods Documents? - Recently declassified docs detailing how the US would simulate an attack on US soil and blame it on Cuba and intice military action against them

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

Operation Northwoods, or Northwoods, was a 1962 plan by the US Department of Defense to stage acts of simulated or real terrorism on US soil and against US interests and then put the blame of these acts on Cuba, so as to generate U.S. public support for military action against the Cuban government of Fidel Castro.

As part of the U.S. government's Operation Mongoose anti-Castro initiative, the plan, which was not implemented, called for various false flag actions, including simulated or real state-sponsored acts of terrorism (such as hijacked planes) on U.S. and Cuban soil. The plan was proposed by senior U.S. Department of Defense leaders, including the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Lyman Louis Lemnitzer.
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Sound familiar?
 
mercurial said:
very familiar! nice find.
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Hehe tanx,

If you have some time, one of the biggest and best forums I've found on the net is called AboveTopSecret, its got 10s of thousands of members and alot of scientists, politicians etc etc subscribe to it and offer authentic evidence to both sides of the argument and others

Be warned though, theres also alot of crap on there too but you get used to it after a while lol

CLick on recent posts... http://www.abovetopsecret.com/
 
MeNeZ said:
Hehe tanx,

If you have some time, one of the biggest and best forums I've found on the net is called AboveTopSecret, its got 10s of thousands of members and alot of scientists, politicians etc etc subscribe to it and offer authentic evidence to both sides of the argument and others

Be warned though, theres also alot of crap on there too but you get used to it after a while lol

CLick on recent posts... http://www.abovetopsecret.com/
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lekker man! thanks.
 
All good! :D I found it at work years ago and theres always stuff on there that happens and no-one hears about. Things often happen which only end up on the news days later...
 
MeNeZ said:
All good! :D I found it at work years ago and theres always stuff on there that happens and no-one hears about. Things often happen which only end up on the news days later...
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yeah, probably after they manipulate all the info to their liking :)
 
Yeah :( *wipes tear from eye* The PAIN!!

Im busy watching movies on spikedhumor lol, theres some really good stuff! :D
 
Yeah I know, I was gonna go out last night and hit the beach today...but instead I had to wake up at 6:30 and drive for an hour... I swear if it rains on the weekend, Im climbing a clocktower with an uzi!
 
MeNeZ said:
Yeah I know, I was gonna go out last night and hit the beach today...but instead I had to wake up at 6:30 and drive for an hour... I swear if it rains on the weekend, Im climbing a clocktower with an uzi!
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hehe. i'll be happy to just sleep :o
 
Hehe, I know! :p

We'll probably only get moaned at for derailing next year!

Rabble rabble rabble*
 
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