CCMA and disputing a warning

[Crabby]

Normally I'd be on the side of the employee. But the end of the year function isn't the time for you to get things off your chest. Issues should be handled on the right platform and should be dealt with during the year. If I were you I'd have made my apologies when I saw the letter arriving.

Edit: Contact the ccma. They have consultants that can help you with this. You may get away with this if they didn't follow the correct procedures when giving you the warning.

I have apologised. They did not follow correct procedures. I was contacted on 12th Dec for an informal disciplinary discussion that turned into a hearing with less than 12 hours notice. I had nobody to represent me against the HR manager, my SD manager and a HR person. My SD manager had already discussed the hearing with someone I know who doesn't even work for the comapny, so I had some heads up at least. They then said they'd get back to me on the 13th, but only bothered this week. I've now got a final written warning and am banned from future year end parties.

What does a "few choice words" mean?

Cnut - I've been doing it for years. I should have twigged that this year was different as there wasn't any residual white nose powder on the cnut.

What was the offence they nailed you for?

'disrespectful to senior and top management in your interactions with them.'

I would start by asking @Datura for a new job

But yeah i think its the way you say things which could warrant a final warning ...bringing the company into disrepute could be one of those things

Lol I'm not a big fan of Mozambique.

Dat will know exactly where it comes from. Grumpy and Dizi got the same warning.

Thanks for the laughs all. I'm not too perturbed by it.
I think they have an issue in our area and can't get contracts renewed, so they are going to sit with a massive problem of having 5 staff sitting on the bench without contracts. Might be cheaper to chase us away on our own than having to kak and betaal.

 

[3WA]

I've now got a final written warning and am banned from future year end parties.

Your street cred in the office is now of the charts. New hires will whisper in awe as they see you in the corridor.

 

[acidrain]

I have apologised. They did not follow correct procedures. I was contacted on 12th Dec for an informal disciplinary discussion that turned into a hearing with less than 12 hours notice.

They actually lucky they didn't fire you. Notice of hearing needs to be 3 days, at least.

'disrespectful to senior and top management in your interactions with them.'

I would say you received a fair disciplinary in this respect assuming you used cuss words with them with a raised voice.

 

[Crabby]

I would say you received a fair disciplinary in this respect assuming you used cuss words with them with a raised voice.

That I did.

I'm not disputing the fact, I'm disputing that it's only happened after 12 years.

 

[Crabby]

Your street cred in the office is now of the charts. New hires will whisper in awe as they see you in the corridor.

I've got an invite to next years bash as a colleagues +1

 

[ekske1]

Looking for some advice.

For the past 12 years, I have been going to our company year end function and getting rotten on the free booze available.

This past year, I was relatively 'well' behaved and didn't mix shots with beer and remained upright the whole event.

As per my norm every year, I have a chat with the company owner and have a few choice words I keep just for him as the list of unkept promises from the past 12 years grows.

This year, he (unfortunately for me) stayed sober the whole event and remembered it all.

I am now in the process of receiving a final written warning for my behaviour on the evening.

I have never received any warnings, verbal or written, so not sure how this constitutes my final one.

I have been drunk at every other year end function I've ever been to with this company. The reason I took it 'easier' this year was last year I was so pap I fell down the escalator and broke 3 of my ribs. I have never received so much as a talking to from management in the past and now all of a sudden this.

Anyone think this is something I can take to the CCMA for arbitration ?

Yes, I know I'm an immature **** and I am in the wrong and have been for the past 12 years, but the jump from nothing to final doesn't sit well with me.

Any advice ?

daars nie pilletjies vir domgeit nie.

 

[Sensorei]

After 12 years there the best you could do for yourself is start applying for a new job with better prospects.

 

[RedViking]

/snip

Yes, I know I'm an immature **** and I am in the wrong and have been for the past 12 years, but....

Now that is an understatement. Maybe this will work.

 

[the eskimo]

So having been through a labour matter myself I've tried to stay on top of may labour related matters and I promised myself I would never be like the bosses I've had in the past. Standard "Don't ask for legal advice on an internet forum, go see a lawyer" disclaimer.

If you wish to dispute the warning, you are fully entitled to do so.

Based on what you've said, I would see three things you could potentially dispute:

1. Procedural Fairness - They gave you insufficient time to prepare for a disciplinary process
2. The findings - You believe their findings of you being 'disrespectful to senior and top management in your interactions with them.' is false
3. The sanction - You believe a final written warning is too harsh because of their being a precedent set in previous years with no sanction

There are a couple of options available:

1. Internal Processes

A good disciplinary procedure will allow for an internal appeal. You should check with HR if this is allowed.

or

2. CCMA for "Unfair labour practice"

You would typically refer a matter to the CCMA for Con-Arb (Concilliation, failing which Arbitration) for unfair labour practice. I would suggest you consult a labour lawyer should you decide to do this.

Be careful when you take a company head-on on labour matters, and don't take anything said and done as being said/done in good faith and record everything (speaking from experience).

That being said, I think your best bet is to engage constructively (and in writing) that you wish to accept the findings on condition of a lesser sanction (maybe a verbal warning with a self-imposed 2 drink limit at a year-end function).

Good Luck!

 

[Crabby]

After 12 years there the best you could do for yourself is start applying for a new job with better prospects.

Under way. I think my once a year stupiditiss might be scuppering my prospects though.

 

[acidrain]

That I did.

I'm not disputing the fact, I'm disputing that it's only happened after 12 years.

Not sure if you saying that you have been like this towards them for 12 years or that it's your only offense in 12 years.

If the latter, good behavior does not really come into question. It really is as simple as you broke a rule and received the corresponding punishment. The only thing to look at now is the expiration of the warning. For something like that I would put 6 months on it... any more and it's bordering on the edge of unfair.

 

[Cray]

That I did.

I'm not disputing the fact, I'm disputing that it's only happened after 12 years.

You dodged 11 bullets, unfortunately not the last one....

 

[Crabby]

Not sure if you saying that you have been like this towards them for 12 years or that it's your only offense in 12 years.

If the latter, good behavior does not really come into question. It really is as simple as you broke a rule and received the corresponding punishment. The only thing to look at now is the expiration of the warning. For something like that I would put 6 months on it... any more and it's bordering on the edge of unfair.

I have been like this towards them for 12 years.

12 months expiration.

 

[the eskimo]

Precedent is a very valid thing in law. Should they wish to start enforcing rules that previously went unpunished then (unless prior warning is given) the sanction should not be anything near a final written warning.

A 12 month validity for a final written warning is normal, but note that you can't get dismissed for another completely unrelated minor infraction (such as coming late to work)

A warning for one type of contravention is not applicable to another type of offence. In other words, a first written warning for late-coming could not lead to a second written warning for insubordination.
http://www.ccma.org.za/Services/Individual-Employee-Employer/Disciplinary-procedures

 

[semaphore]

Looking for some advice.

For the past 12 years, I have been going to our company year end function and getting rotten on the free booze available.

This past year, I was relatively 'well' behaved and didn't mix shots with beer and remained upright the whole event.

As per my norm every year, I have a chat with the company owner and have a few choice words I keep just for him as the list of unkept promises from the past 12 years grows.

This year, he (unfortunately for me) stayed sober the whole event and remembered it all.

I am now in the process of receiving a final written warning for my behaviour on the evening.

I have never received any warnings, verbal or written, so not sure how this constitutes my final one.

I have been drunk at every other year end function I've ever been to with this company. The reason I took it 'easier' this year was last year I was so pap I fell down the escalator and broke 3 of my ribs. I have never received so much as a talking to from management in the past and now all of a sudden this.

Anyone think this is something I can take to the CCMA for arbitration ?

Yes, I know I'm an immature **** and I am in the wrong and have been for the past 12 years, but the jump from nothing to final doesn't sit well with me.

Any advice ?

I'm surprised you lasted that long.

 

[killerbyte]

Don't get **** faced around your employer. Sadly its that simple. All these drama could have been avoided if you didnt drink to excess and didnt think the year end party was your chance to remind your boss he is a dick. The point of the christmas party is to have a good time with your work mates on the boss' dime. So enjoy the taste of the best booze he is prepared to buy but don't drink until you get yourself in ****. If you are over the limit for the cops then you are over the limit when around your boss.

 

[acidrain]

I have been like this towards them for 12 years.

12 months expiration.

Yeah they might have dug themselves a hole then unknowingly. Would like to give them the benefit of doubt and say they only let it slide because they either valued you as an employee and were willing to take the "abuse" or just didn't think it was that bad at the time but unfortunately rules are rules and you can't be selective about it without some sort of reasoning.

As eskimo stated, the safest thing for them to have done was just take you to one side and let you know they are not going to tolerate it anymore and that in future they will be enforcing their code of conduct in this respect.

 

[Lucas Buck]

That being said, I think your best bet is to engage constructively (and in writing) that you wish to accept the findings on condition of a lesser sanction (maybe a verbal warning with a self-imposed 2 drink limit at a year-end function).

Good Luck!

I like your post especially the last paragraph. A lot of the time you can get leniency but it really depends on how you approach the situation. A well reasoned and thought out approach will get you further than going to battle especially if you wish to have a drama free stay at the company.

 

[acidrain]

Don't get **** faced around your employer. Sadly its that simple. All these drama could have been avoided if you didnt drink to excess and didnt think the year end party was your chance to remind your boss he is a dick. The point of the christmas party is to have a good time with your work mates on the boss' dime. So enjoy the taste of the best booze he is prepared to buy but don't drink until you get yourself in ****. If you are over the limit for the cops then you are over the limit when around your boss.

Happened at one of our parties 2 years back. Lunch at a nice restaurant with an open tab. 2 guys went overboard.. 1 literally over the rails and into the stream running alongside.

Needless to say when we re-opened the year after I just made it clear that the company will no longer be hosting any end of year functions anymore.

 

[gregmcc]

Time to lay off the booze at company events.