Charging data usage for downloads - Vodacom

[DarkBlood]

Okay, after a proposed R1,300 bill for data usage and 4 differing opinions regarding whether downloads are charged under the service provider (i.e. Vodacom) tariffs or not, I decided to look at the source and not at forums or other interpretations.

The following is as per Vodacom Terms & Conditions as at 21 June 2011:


BlackBerry Internet Service and BlackBerry Enterprise Server on-device browsing usage policy (BlackBerry Operating System v5 and earlier)


BlackBerry Internet Service and BlackBerry Enterprise Server

'...Billing: Browsing the Internet is not charged for when using the BlackBerry Internet Browser (Referred to as on-device Internet browsing). This data usage is inclusive of the subscription when subscribing to the BlackBerry Internet Service or BlackBerry Enterprise Server.

Limitations: There is a restriction on the size and types of files that can be downloaded. HTTPS sites such as banking sites do not always display the way that they would on a PC and therefore do not allow users to login.'

BlackBerry Internet Service & BlackBerry Enterprise service on-device browsing usage policy (BlackBerry 6 Operating System 6)

For BlackBerry® 6 operating system, there is only a single BlackBerry browser that accommodates both BlackBerry Internet Service and BlackBerry Enterprise Server data usage. All WAP related data usage is routed via the WAP browser and rated according to the relevant data tariffs.

Vodacom reserves the right to amend or modify these usage terms and conditions and such modified, amended or updated terms will be posted on our website on www.vodacom.co.za. You will be bound by all current terms and conditions, so please update yourself with them on a regular basis.

Now, the important thing to note is that:

(1) Regarding OS5, it states that there is a limit to the size of files one can download however this is under 'LIMITATIONS' as opposed to 'BILLINGS'. Any reasonable person who looks at this would conclude that the downloading limites mentioned have no relevance when it comes to 'billing'.
(2) OS6 does not mention ANY download limit - even in the ambiguous manner it does for OS5.
(3) The only mention regarding data being charted at the 'relevant data tariffs' is when there is WAP related data usage routed via a WAP browser. This is where I am going to need someone to explain to me what the difference is between the BlackBerry browser (mentioned in the first sentence of paragraph one) and the WAP browser (mentioned in the last sentence of paragraph one). The way I understand it though, until we received notification regarding the data being charged at the service provider's rates I conclude that, again, a reasonable person would conclude that all else is NOT using this 'WAP browser' and therefore should NOT be charged at the WAP tariffs.

IN ADDITION to Number 3, I bring the following to your attention:

'...To set your BlackBerry smartphone to prompt you before switching to the WAP browser, follow the steps below. (By default it is activated, but may be deactivated when prompted for the first time.)

Open your Internet browser, and press the menu (BlackBerry) key

Scroll to and select Options

Scroll to and select General Properties

Scroll to the Prompt Before section and ensure that there is a tick in the Switch to WAP for streaming media checkbox

Press the menu key

Scroll to and select Save Options

Press the return key to return to your Internet browser...'

http://www.vodacom.co.za/vodacom/mi...cted=3_a_Bla_0_Bla_1227&ciFormat=default&ht=t

Again, according to Vodacom and how they have represented it in THEIR official Terms & Conditions, if I follow this setting instruction to 'prompt' the browser when it switches 'to WAP for streaming media'. So, again, a reasonable person would conclude that if they follow Vodacom's instructions and terms and conditions, they will not be using a WAP browser in any data usage (Including downloads) so long as they use the prompt as instructed.

Conclusion

So far as I can see it by looking at their terms and conditions, so long as I am using Operating System 6 for BlackBerry and am on BIS, I shouldn't be charged ANY data usage fees unless I am streaming or am using the WAP browser. If I activate the prompt as they instructed, I can conclude that I am NOT using WAP browsing and so - even if I download a 10GB file, I should not be charged.

Does anyone else have a different argument?

 

[al360]

i agree they pulled that stunt on my wife once and after our complaints never received a high bill again = bunch a thieves (chancers) but i never received a refund thou ???

 

[DarkBlood]

i agree they pulled that stunt on my wife once and after our complaints never received a high bill again = bunch a thieves (chancers) but i never received a refund thou ???

Did you post on HelloPeter? I've tried them and at least they responded to that - as far as it comes to resolving it we'll see. My last resort will be to contact my bank and ask them to reverse the payment right after it goes out and pay Vodacom the fixed amount and any call charges. I'll withhold the payment for the data charges until this matter has been resolved. The problem is that they have leverage when it comes to the payment. They can bill you incorrectly; take the money and then - when you dispute - say 'Sorry, we can't do anything about it now but we'll make sure it doesn't happen again.' That's all good and well but they still have our money.

People start to pay attention when you don't pay them - suddenly they're willing to work with you.

P.S. Consumer Protection Act gives you very valid defences in the event that they try take chances.

 

[DarkBlood]

I think I'll use this thread to run through my experience with this matter - I know for a fact that I am not the only one.

So, yesterday I phoned Vodacom and told them I want to migrate from contract to a top-up plan. I selected the plan and they are charging me R430 migration fee - from a business perspective it makes sense since they are trying to recover lost revenue that I would have generated for them had I stayed on my contract (additional calls beyond the 2 hours free). R430 was bladdy high but I figured I'd pay it to avoid this fiasco again - I'd rather pay the R430 than to sweat bullets for each month for 18 months hoping they bill me correctly.

Once the 'customer care' guy called me and I explained to him (again for probably the 10th time) that I don't stream, I use the default browser and all those delicious questions they try ask to justify their charging me incorrectly, he suggested that he place an INHIBITOR on my account.

Inhibitor you say? Well, an inhibitor is a function that stops you from accessing sites that you will incurr data charges on (i.e. streaming sites). I said 'yes', he activated it and here I am. After it was 'activated', I decided to test it to see if it worked. I went onto YouTube and tried to play a video only to get an error message that stopped me. Just to make sure it wasn't luck I did it about 5 more times and it was not playing. I then proceeded to a download site and downloaded a file (330MB yesterday, 175MB today) and not once did it stop me.

I went onto my Vodacom account and checked - it RECORDED the data usage but it placed a '*******' under the 'charge'. I understood this to mean there was no charge. The proposed invoice amout was the same today (after the downloads) as it was BEFORE I strated the downloads yesterday. So, no additional data charges have been incurred since the inhibitor.

Question: What is the most commonly asked question asked by all users of BlackBerry regarding BIS?
Answer: What sites are covered by BIS and what sites are not?

The sister question is: 'How do I know I'm being charged? I don't want to go onto a site and be charged without knowing it.' It appears to me that in the interest of customer service, Vodacom would go ahead and answer the question 'How can I be sure I'm not paying' with the answer 'Well, if you want we can implement an inhibitor that will stop you from accessing sites that make you incurr additional data charges.'

Hmmmm.....Question: Why doesn't Vodacom make us aware of this via sales consultants, call centres, customer care or their very informative web site?
Answer: Well.....?

I do not have an answer but I DO have a suspicion.

Moving right along, after the data inhibitor non-sense and all that, I got the following sms:

SMS from Vodacom

To prevent future charges, please be mindful of the extra costs and please follow the instructions below. Please check your settings options- advanced options - browser - default browser configuration (must be on internet browser or Blackberry browser )- default MDS browser configuration - must be on internet browser or Blackberry browser ) - default WAP browser configuration (must be on Vodafone Live) then save. Go to TCP and make sure that there is nothing captured after ?APN?. Thereafter, please delete all bookmarks and re-instate them to ensure correct browser settings. Kind regards, Vodacom Customer Care - Advanced Data Support Team FAIEK MOHAMED

2nd SMS from Vodacom

Please be reminded that additional costs outside of the Blackberry offering is as follows: 1) Other browser like and opera mini and vlive including accessing the internet via the Vlive icon from the main menu. 2) Using the Blackberry sim in another device. 3) Incorrect browser settings attributing to small amounts being billed on the Blackberry. 4) Video and audio streaming.? 5) Using the phone as a modem to connect to a computer. 6) International Roaming. 7) Bookmarks caching incorrect browser settings also incurring small charges. 8) Any application not downloaded via the Blackberry App world. Kind regards, Vodacom Customer Care - Advanced Data Support Team FAIEK MOHAMED

Now, what is it that you notice about all that they mention? Nowhere in their do they mention you being billing DUE TO DOWNLOADING! Let's go back to the reasonable person. Since it is not SPECIFICALLY mentioned, a reasonable person would continue downloading, even if it's a 10GB file, and not expect to get billed - rightfully so they SHOULDN'T get billed anyway.

Check your cellphone bill

So, onto the R1,371 proposed bill which includes a VAT exclusive R293 for data charges. I finally look at the itemised billing today and take a look at what ADDITIONAL data charges ABOVE the R293 were made from Monday's downloads. Imagine my surprise when I see that Monday had something ridiculous like R0.10 (in fact, I think it was zero). I decided to look at the other amounts reported: There were some for R0.03, others for R0.01 and so forth and then a big one for R290 on one day. Somehow Vodacom took these little R0.03 amounts, added them to the R290 amount to get R293 (which I agree with) and then take another small R0.10 amount as well as the '*********' for yesterday's downloads and it all aggregated to R880. You can do the maths and see that they over-stated it by a couple of Rands.....sorry, slipped, I meant a couple of TWO HUNDRED Rands.

So now I've submitted THIS to Vodacom as well as an argument that the data usage, whilst correct in bits, is HIGHLY inaccurate in Rand terms - because it should be zero or something close to it.

Conclusion

So currently my recommendations for everyone are:

(1) Phone Vodacom (or your service provider) and tell them to put an inhibitor on your account so that you are unable to access any site that will incurr additional data charges not covered by BIS.
(2) Stick to prepaid or top-up, that way if they try something funny, it has a limit whereafter they may not recover.

As it stands right now, if I should incurr additional data charges since yesterday for ANYTHING, then there is valid ground for me to approach them and say 'Your system is shocked. I had an inhibitor and it STILL charged me.'

Stay tuned for another episode of 'The Vodacom Chronicles'.

Sincerely yours - DarkBlood

 

[Shads]

OMG Darkblood! We are having the same problems! Bloody Vodacom! I've also been told that now that the apn has been removed from my sim, i won't be charged data. I have also (just to check) gone and downloaded stuff. And you're right - no charges! So what have I been charged for? It's ridiculous!

I agree 100% with your recommendations. I have also gone with the inhibitor route and I'm waiting for feedback on the swapping to top-up. My migration fee comes to over R1000!! And I'm willing to move up! I am currently on a weekender and my bill (together with BIS) is R160. I am willing to take the R200 top-up package and the BIS - which comes to R260 and yet they want to charge me a migration fee of over R1000! Bull, I say!

And yet, I can download more on the top-up package? So what are they charging us for!

Anyone deciding on getting a blackberry - get top-up or pay as you go. Never ever ever get it on contract. They rip you off! And you never know when it will hit you! I've never ever had a high data bill!

 

[DarkBlood]

Hehe...it's a fun saga. I stopped being angry and started having fun with this yesterday - especially after I found the terms and conditions; read the Consumer Protection Act and read up on ICASA about the procedure of complaints before it can be escalated to them.

This should be fun.

 

[DarkBlood]

Day 5 of the saga.

The consultant calls me (the first one who I was convinced tried to find a solution to my problem) after responding to my HelloPeter comment. He asks a few questions (same questions), I respond to them and he says he'll take it to the advanced data people to check.

10 minutes later HE calls me back (first time the same person called me back to resolve the issue) and says that a person from data unchecked his APN settings and left them blank then tried to access Vuclip and it didn't work. They concluded that, because I was using Vuclip, the data charges are correct. I dispute and argue with him bringing five contradicting factors to his equation:

(1) My APN settings were unchecked - like THEY told me to do;
(2) My data inhibitor was enabled - as HE confirmed in the first call;
(3) The sales person AT VODACOM when I bought the phone told me Vuclip won't incur data charges - also confirmed by a SECOND person in the call centre data department;
(4) I had been accessing Vuclip, occasionally, for over 6 months and had NEVER incurred data charges. Now suddenly I incurr them - there is a problem;
(5) AFTER the inhibitor and the APN settings were confirmed, I accessed YouTube to confirm it worked (the inhibitor that it) and the video streaming was blocked. I then accessed Vuclip, streamed the video AND downloaded it and it worked - thus proving that the site shouldn't incurr data charges.

I therefore, I told him, refuse to accept that the data charges are correct. He told me he'll call me back consonsult with Data-Department Guy. In the meantime - just incase they don't believe me, I record a video of myself demonstrating that the APN settings are unchecked; the inhibitor is one and yet I can access, stream and download Vuclips and its videos. Therefore, like Batman riding a T-Rex, you're argument is invalid.

He calls back (THREE calls, I was on a roll or good fortune from the Almighty Vodacom) and says that Data-Department Guy says that since I have been on the inhibitor and the APN settings unchecked I have not incurred any additional data charges. Therefore, I must have been streaming and thus the data charges are correct. I take a deep breath, tell him to listen to me very carefully: I am not insinuating it; I'm not suggesting it; I'm TELLING them that I have not ben streaming, using another browser or tethering. If they want to accuse me that I have been streaming then they will have to PROVE it. Until then, I am not accepting that flawed logic.

I then put it into perspective for him, 'Listen, I need you to understand this first. I have absolutely NOTHING against YOU. I have no beef. If I met you on the streets I'd probably shake your hand and buy you a drink. I have no issues with you. MY problem is with VODACOM. So please don't take this personally. And let's think about this. Vodacom is a multi BILLION RAND company - one of the biggest companies in South Africa. R300 is not even a rounding error in their PETTY CASH. Vodacom can generate R300 in ONE SECOND - in fact, Vodacom just generated it in the time it took for me to say that. Are you telling me that you guys are going through so much trouble trying to justify R300???? REALLY???? Are you SERIOUS??? Go to your directors or senior managers and tell them this matter is regarding R300 and see what they say. Your directors can pay me that R300 FROM THEIR POCKET. Does it REALLY make sense to you that you're going through all this for R300??? I've been a Vodacom customer for a while now and have been using your network for a long time and right now, I am getting incredibly frustrated and am holding myself back from exploding on this matter.'

'R300 is a lot of money to me and I refuse to accept this charge. I am going to keep escalating this until this matter is resolved!'

He asks me about the bill saying am I aware it's actually R900 and not R300. 'Yes, I'm aware of that actually thus bringing me to ANOTHER point. If you look at the line items and add them up you'll get an amount of R293 - and yet you're SYSTEM is reporting R880 VAT exclusive. It's like I've been telling you guys all this time: Your system is flawed!!! There is a glitch in your system and instead of spending time looking into it and fixing this little glitch, you're all running around trying to justify an amount INCORRECTLY charged.'

He tells me the best he can do is write it in the complaints report and send it upstairs where the investigation is still pending. The earliest I can hear back from them is 8 July 2011 - he was just handling the HelloPeter response.

I thank him and wish him well and end the call.

To be continued.

 

[DarkBlood]

18 July 2011 - Almost a month later and the saga shows signs of coming to an end.

So they phone me yesterday and finally tell me that their system and report has concluded that I HAVE to have been streaming. I respond: 'Well, I am not satisfied with that. Who do I report this to? I know I have to escalate it to someone in a senior position and only THEN can I resort to reporting this to ICASA and the Consumer Protection Tribunal under the Consumer Protection Act.' He tells me that if he puts it on his senior's desk the senior will get the same report and they will only submit the same report to ICASA. I tell him 'Okay, then that is what is to happen.'

I then ask him, let's talk about the billing for July. 'I have individual entries of data usage that, when I add them up, I get R294. Somehow, your report says R880. Can you please explain to me what happens between the last line item and the bottom line that gets me from R294 to R880.' He says on 21 June 2011 there was data usage (on my statement it was reported as '*********' under the data charge) which came up to R500. Now I run him through the matter - let's look at that date for an example. 'What was the first date that your system says I logged a call?' He says the 21st of June 2011. 'Okay, let's take a look at that date. On the 21st I call about this problem, speak to your consultants who tell me what settings to do in terms of TCP/IP settings and what sites to use and note use and all that jazz. I did that and STILL I get charged data charges - even AFTER a data inhibitor? Do you see where I am saying your system has a glitch?'

Some words exchange until he says I was using Vuclip to which I respond, 'Okay, let's think of something. Since I had the inhibitor on that you guys gave me, I was told that I should not be able to access any web site that will incur additional data charges. I tested this and tried to go onto Youtube and it didn't work. I then went on to Vuclip, I even recorded myself doing it, and it streamed it AND let me download. What that tells me, then, is that IF I used Vuclip then it should not incur additional data charges (as any reasonable man would conclude). So THAT explanation is not satisfactory (I decided to spare him the false representation by their TWO Vodacom sales consultants - one from Advanced Data Services - who told me Vuclip won't incur additional data charges).

He then gets to my favourite part: 'Sir, have you been on the Vodacom web site?'
'Yes I have (excited because I can see where he's going).'
'Have you been to the terms and conditions (the ones posted above).'
'Yes I have (getting more excited.'
'On the terms and conditions it mentions that BROWSING is free - streaming is not browsing.'
'Your terms and conditions do not SPECIFICALLY mention that streaming will incur additional data charges. It mentions that WAP related data will incur additional charges, but it doesn't specifically mention 'streaming'. Maybe under 'OS 5' it mentions it, but if you scroll down right to the bottom to the part that deals with OS 6 it makes no mentio....'

At this point he inter-ERUPTS me. He blows up like a volcano - you know, the way you would when you've been outperformed, outclassed and out-smarted and you try and save face? Yeh, that way. He snaps at me saying 'Clearly you know the terms and conditions so I'm going to pass a credit note but we are not issuing any more credit notes if this happens again (paraphrasing)!!!'

I stay cool but then try and get absolute clarification that the inhibitor that they have is 100% effective and I will not be able to access any site (even though I don't stream on Youtube) that I am not allowed to access. He snaps, 'Look! Let's stop *****footing! You KNOW what you did! (Exact words. Notice the aggression, amazing customer service of shouting at your customer and the use of passive accusations and using impolite language) You KNOW what you did! We'll be going around this in circles so...'
'Okay, let's leave that alone. Regarding this R900 odd that you say I owe, what are we going to do with that?'
'I said I'll issue a credit note on it but we won't issue any more credit notes in the future (paraphrase).'
'Thank you. That's all I wanted. Thank you so very much for your service and I really do appreciate it.'

By this time he's already 'dropped' the call without saying 'thank you', 'goodbye' or any other salutation on departure. I say 'dropped' because he THOUGHT he ended the call, but actually he hadn't. So now I sit and listen as he bitches and moans and whines about this to his colleagues saying the old 'So I told him, no more credit notes...rabble rabble rabble.' Soon, he realises the phone is still on and ends the call.

Five minutes later I get an sms:

'Dear Customer : Please be advised that a once of credit has been processed for data charges ,kindly note that no further credits will be entertained for data charges on your blackberry.Refer to our standard terms and conditions. Kind regards, Vodacom Customer Care - Advanced Data Support Team Rafique Limbada' That's verbatim with grammar, spelling and format.

I then get the SAME sms that I got from them before about how I may incur additional data charges which I adhered to before this saga. Eh, I decide I'll wait for the credit to go through.


Point of note for a few people:

You cannot deny a customer a credit to their account if they were incorrectly billed for ANY reason. You can incorrectly bill them and 100 times and you STILL have to give them a credit note each 100 times. Credits to accounts isn't like a Get Out of Jail Free Card - use once in a lifetime. Refusing to do so, and representing as such surely is a contravention of some law somewhere (I'll do my homework on this one).

Point of view

I am not the first nor will I be the last (I hope) person to approach Vodacom and make noise and a fight about this. There are two things one can do with this information regarding customer complaints:

1) Decide 'These customers are crazy and shady trying to pull a fast one on us. They're ALL crooks.'
2) Think, 'Hmmmm...this is a problem that's occuring too often. There has to be a problem in our billing system. Let's investigate it and get a consulting firm to look into it - even if it's to COA (Cover Our Ass).' Call the consultant and have this investigation done.

Somehow, I see no evidence that Number 2 is the decision that is being taken, which I do not understand. Maybe when ICASA and and Competition Commission stomps in and DEMANDS an investigation and re-imbursement of incorrect charges (an EXPENSIVE procedure to find the incorrect charges and pay them back), maybe THEN they'll listen.

Eh, thoughts of one man.

To be continued.

 

[DarkBlood]

The final day of the saga: I check my bank account and I have, indeed, been refunded R931 posted directly into my bank account. It was a long and difficult experience by after a good 2 month battle, I find justice and the long-awaited (much needed) refund.

There is joy and happiness all around.

The End.

 

[DarkBlood]

HECTIC....i just asked Nashua Mobile (im on a Vodacom Contract) to disconnect my internet settings and to only let me browse via BIS.......sms was sent to say "Your internet service has been deleted" and then another sms "Your Vlive service has been deleted."

So now i think im browsing on BIS only......checked Youtube and i get an error when wanting to stream, dont know of another website i can try to check if im only using BIS

Do you have Online Itemised Billing with Nashua?

 

[DarkBlood]

So what i have done now to even further reduce my risk of using normal WAP instead of BIS.

Since 1st to now i have downloaded close to 5GIG already for free

Yeeeeeaaaah.....you might not want to run around bragging about things like that. People take it personally since Vodacom nearly initiated a capping system announced in September 2011. Better, still, try not to get carried away with that kind of downloading.

 

[DarkBlood]

Thanks for the download manager though. I've always been looking for a download manager for BlackBerry and haven't found one yet.