Clutch or Fuel Pump?

Half_Loaf

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Nov 12, 2009
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Hi guys.

I had my clutch replaced about two weeks ago as the old one was past its prime and had started to slip and shudder. The mechanic also said I should replace my fuel pump as it was on its way. I told him not to because I had not had any issues with it.

Anyway, the car was running well for the first week, but now I'm getting what feels like the exact same clutch shudder/chatter at low revs (between 1500 and 2000) through all the gears. Once the revs reach 2000 it comes right again.

What I want to know...

A.) Have they installed the clutch poorly? I know grease on the friction surface can cause clutch chatter and renders it useless. Strange that it would start a week later though...
B.) Should I stop being a noob and replace my fuel pump? Would this shuddering in low revs be a symptom of a faulty one? I just can't help feeling that mechanics sabotage parts to ensure comebacks.

Thanks in advance.
 

The_Unbeliever

Honorary Master
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Apr 19, 2005
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What is the make and model of the car?

If it was the fuel pump, then you would have fuel starvation as the engine won't perform under heavy loads (accelerating etc) as the fuel pump won't be able to supply enough fuel to the engine.

If it's an fuel-injected car, you should (and must) replace the fuel filter every 100000kms. Most people does not do it - and get stuck in the middle of nowhere.
 

Half_Loaf

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Nov 12, 2009
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Opel Corsa C 2005 1.6 Sport, 79000km on the clock.

Well another thing that leads me to thinking maybe I am being an idiot and I should just replace the fuel pump is that I had a random backfire and then the car cut out. It happened once, about a week ago, and hasn't happened again.
 

chemfis

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Sep 30, 2008
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142
I'll put my head on the block and say it's definitely not fuel pump, almost certainly they used poor quality parts for the clutch or didn't put it in properly.

Sympathies.
 

Gnome

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The low rev shudder is because he messed up the clutch job, either he didn't skim the flywheel or he did skim it and messed it up.

What does the car do @ 3200RPM (peak torque) and peak power (can't remember what RPM that is at for the 16SE).

Fuel pump on those cars cost around R1500 to replace (DIY), it's quite a easy job but they don't generally break, it's more likely that your Coil Pack is on it's way out which can also cause back-fire. Back-yard mechanics who don't often work with Opel will generally advice you to change the fuel pump because that is what causes those symptoms on other cars, on Opel's it's the coil pack.
 

Ivork

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Nov 9, 2005
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If there was a balancing problem then you would have felt it right from the start.

The only time the clutch is working is when you push it to engage or change gears - at which point it may shudder if there is dirt or oil on the plate or friction surfaces.

If it shudders while you are driving (foot off the clutch) and just goes away after 2000rpm = not clutch imho. Could easily be fuel/mixture/timing/plug/coil/supressor related.

I had a random backfire and then the car cut out.
Timing would cause that, all controlled by the computer box these days. I would check that before replacing the pump.

.
 
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Half_Loaf

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Nov 12, 2009
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Thanks for all the replies.

@Gnome - after 2000RPM the car feels as new, no issues whatsoever. Power feels good up until 4500 odd, which is as it was before.

Anyway, I'm taking it back to car service city later to have it looked at. Hopefully they will honour their 3 month cockup guarantee.

I'll let you know the outcome.

Thanks again.
 

Gnome

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Could easily be fuel/mixture/timing related.

Except for one problem, the fuel pump will generally give you problems when it's hot and at high-rpm because that is when the engine uses the most fuel and low fuel pressure will be most evident. A fuel pump that only gives you trouble at low-rpm doesn't make sense.

Timing cannot be set on that ECU or Engine. Physically the timing could be out but it's hectic when that happens, the car will be very low on performance throughout the rev range, it'll knock, heavy fuel consumption, etc. It also usually happens when the cam belt has been changed (by a idiot who doesn't know how to do it that is).

The car has a O2 sensor to correct mixture and the CO's can only be set by people owning a Opel Tech2 (which costs more than a house I last heard and is only available from GM to authorized dealers). Problem is the mixture is correct week 1 and week 2 it's not, that doesn't make sense. GM will gladly set the CO's for R400.
 

Ivork

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A fuel pump that only gives you trouble at low-rpm doesn't make sense.
Agreed, not a pump problem. A fuel problem related to the computer not giving required fuel from faulty O2 sensor or hall sender etc

Timing cannot be set on that ECU or Engine.
well I don't know those cars at all but what exactly does set the timing then?

I was only thinking that whatever controlls the timing, ECU or not, is getting it wrong at the lower revs. As his revs increase and the controll device changes his timing / advances it according to the set advance curve, it suddenly gets it right at a certain point.

I think you might be right about the coils if it has individual ones for each plug tho.
 

Gnome

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Erm, well how it works is the Corsa has a wheel called the 60-2 (sixty minus two) wheel on the crank, it's the crank pulley. The crank pulley turns stuff like the aircon, power steering, alternator whatever. Anyway this wheel has 58 teeth and then it's flat, 2 teeth are missing hence the term 60-2.

Anyway right next to that wheel is a sensor called the Crank Angle Sensor (CAS), whenever the 2 missing teeth move past the ECU detects a change in magnetic flux and this is how the spark plugs and injectors are timed. That wheel is aligned to the no. 1 cylinder at TDC (top dead center).

The only way that the spark plugs could not be firing correctly is if the wheel is misaligned, that wheel has a fit that allows it to go in only 1 way, the correct way, hence it's fool proof. But what sometimes happens is it is not correctly torque'd by whatever idiot changed the cam belt or whatever and where the wheel fits in it starts to wear down, causing the wheel to move, it causes mayor change in performance tho, if that wheel is out by 1 tooth the car will have trouble pulling off, knock, use excessive amounts of fuel, etc. Also that wheel need only be removed when changing the cam belt and stuff like engine rebuilds, so no reason to suspect it just yet.

The engine timing (which is basically how far before TDC the spark is fired) was determined at the factory by Opel, there is absolutely no way to change it apart from making a new wheel. You can only flash the ECU with a Opel Tech2 and even GM service agents don't have the equipment to make new maps, GM PE (the GM head quarters in SA) are likely the only people in SA that can make new maps for those ECU's.

The only other way timing could be out is if the crank gear and cam pulley are misaligned which also could happen after a cam belt change by a n00b. Car most likely won't even start and worse if it's far enough out the engine will bend the valves because that engine (C16SE) is interference design.

The same counts for the mixture, but what they do allow is for you to set a single variable which is a multiplier of sorts, they measure the CO2 at the exhaust and it has to be a certain level, if not they adjust this variable until it is correct. Because they determined when making that map that the CO2 level should be at that level for that given RPM the rest of the map when adjusted by that multiplier should also be correct. Hence when the CO's are out the entire map is usually running either too rich or too lean. In this case it would be lean.

Cars don't shudder unless they are starved for fuel or running so rich that the flame front is being drowned by petrol, but that is unlikely to be the case here as the mixture cannot easily be set that rich.

Finally, the car works on a wasted spark setup, what this means is that the coil pack only has 2 coils and mosfets, when the spark for cylinder no.1 fires so does no.4, when no.2 fires so does no.3. It's quite popular because it simplifies the design and when No.1 is on it's power stroke, no.4 is on the exhaust stroke so that spark does nothing to the exhaust gasses (hence the spark is wasted). Only downside of the design is that if the coil for No.1 fails it also does for no.4, etc. and it wears down sparks plugs faster.

Anyway what happens sometimes is the Coil Pack starts to overheat stops working, then once it's cooled down it'll work again. I've had a car die at me on the highway @ 120km/h, and in gear it was dragged all the way down to 0km/h, absolutely no spark from that coil pack, yet 5 minutes later it's running again like nothings happened. The backfire could be caused by this because if a engine fails to spark the fuel that was supposed to be ignited is ejected into the hot exhaust manifold and it explodes there, hence the backfire.

It does not however explain the shudder, that shudder is in no way related to the coil pack.
 
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Half_Loaf

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Nov 12, 2009
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Gnome, can I bring my car to you when I need it serviced please???? Haha.

Anyway, an update. I took it back to the car service city and they checked it out. Fuel pump was fine, they changed the fuel filter and did an injector service. All of which came to 1k (rip-off, but at this stage I'm just happy it is sorted).

Car is running well now. It actually feels like it has more power than the day I got it...

Thanks again for the help lads.
 
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