Convergence Bill - 01/03/2005

mystic said:
Found this near the end of the document: par 85 (3) (h)

(h) Value-added network services are applications services under this Act.

So VANS will have to apply to become applications service licensees.
irritatingly it seems that the electronic version is a little different from the printed version i got from the government printer yesterday & this is one of the differences

in the printed version 85(3)(h) does not appear like this - rather section 85(e) states that VANS are regarded as communications services...

so there are three broad telecomms licence categories
1. communications network services - these will replace the PSTN licences (Telkom & SNO) + mobile licences etc etc (full list under s85(3)(f)
2. communications services - replace VANS licences, carrier of carriers, and includes most of the communication network licences (i.e. telkom for example would need to hold licences under both as would the mobile co's)
3. application services - no guidance in the Bill as to what will be regarded as an application service provider...probably becuase it is meant to be a broad catch-all category

3 is where i have real problems with the bill...as posted earlier they will have to take a pragmatic approach to this otherwise as qDot says...it won't work
 
mbs said:
Hey DOMINIC - greets from JHB - opportunity for you to take a public stance on this issue? And don't tell me to go fish (figuratively, not literally)!
mbs - hoping you would stick your oar in at some stage :). Always wanted to go to parliament...

i am hoping to work together with an SMME-focused lobbying alliance and to go as public as possible - i look forward to your erudite input
 
erudite = having or showing profound knowledge, for those of us who have to remeber twenty gazillion lines of code.

Anyway - Having gone through this thing and given it time to sink in, I still cannot see anything that stops a communications network service from providing services/applications that are the domain of communications services and application services.

i.e. There is no stipulation that says that a communications network service may not provide what the others do.

This is critical, as SNO/Teklom will cripple any company that tries to startup with a good idea, by taking the same idea, and with their superior funding, providing the same service and effectively eliminate the startup.
 
stoke said:
Anyway - Having gone through this thing and given it time to sink in, I still cannot see anything that stops a communications network service from providing services/applications that are the domain of communications services and application services.

i.e. There is no stipulation that says that a communications network service may not provide what the others do.

This is critical, as SNO/Teklom will cripple any company that tries to startup with a good idea, by taking the same idea, and with their superior funding, providing the same service and effectively eliminate the startup.
agreed - this is unfortunately also how things are at the moment...govt in its wisdom granted telkom a VANS licence which has allowed it compete (unfairly) with all the VANS...the situation is clearly ridiculous...telkom by law holds a monopoly, i.e. it is the only provider of fixed facilities and everyone has to use these [that is what the minister says anyway - i would strongly disagree and believe that VANS can self-provide since 1 feb 2005 no matter what the minister says - she has not amended the telecomms act]....so VANS have to use the telkom facilities and compete with telkom in the VANS market at the same time!!!

this is the basis of the complaint by IS and SAVA (SA Vans Association) and others against Telkom in the Competition Commission - i have not checked up on the progress (lack of...) in this matter but as i recall the competition commission found telkom guilty of anti-competitive practices and has referred the matter to the competition tribunal with a recommendation that telkom be given the maximum possible fine of 10% of its annual turnover...approx R3 billion....telkom are dealying in every way possible

what is interesting in the new Bill which is a change from the previous position is that it looks like ICASA will have the power - at is discretion - to impose restrictive licence conditions on any industry entity which has a dominant market position...these conditions can include wholesale and retail price restrictions and obligations on how they compete and deal with VANS competitors (shortly to be know as communication service providers)
 
dominic said:
- i look forward to your erudite input
There's just not enough hours in the day/night, dammit! It's all I can do to even steal a few minutes to look thru this forum and make the occasional contribution! Here's a suggestion, though - MAD (Greg) is in CT, and would potentially be a useful 'network node'...
 
It seems from 85 (3) (a) that the existing Telkom (& other network infrastructure providers) license will have to be converted into 2 licenses, a communications network license covering the infrastructure portion and a communications services license covering all the services:

"(a) Where an existing licence authorizes the holder of such licence to both
provide services and operate facilities or networks, the Authority must re-issue to that licence holder—
(i) one or more licences relating to the communications services or applications services; and
(ii) separate licences relating to the radio frequency spectrum and communications network services,
consistent with the licence categories set out in Chapter 3."

This would effectively mean that only Telkom, SNO, Vodacom, MTN, CellC and Sentech would have communications network services licenses at this stage, but that they and a lot of other players (VANS etc) would compete in the communication services space because they will be compelled (42 (1)) to provide infrastructure to other licensees.

They would also not be allowed to provide better quality (costs?) to their own operations (42 (2)). So if Icasa is able to successfully regulate according to the act, then we should see a lot of competition in communications services space (maybe virtual telecoms operators analogous to VISPs).

"42. (1) A communications network service licensee must, on request, lease
communications facilities to any—
(a) other communications network service licensee;
(b) application service licensee,
(c) communications service licensee; or
(d) other person authorised to provide services in terms of this Act or the related legislation,
in accordance with the terms and conditions of a communications facilities leasing agreement entered into between the parties for the purposes of delivery of any communications service or any other service authorised by this Act or the related legislation, unless the Authority considers such request to be unreasonable.
(2) The provision of communications facilities by a communications network service licensee in terms of subsection (1) must, unless otherwise requested by the leasing party, not be less than the same technical standard and quality as the technical standard and quality provided by such communications network service licensee to itself or to an affiliate."
 
Goverment gone crazy

I haven't read through everything but if this means running iis without a licence someone in our goverment is wrong in the head - lets have a show of hands who uses iis?

mbs said:
... even steal a few minutes to look thru this forum and make the occasional contribution!

occasional contrabution? looks like you have a good number of posts under your belt!
 
How to discourage innovation ?

a. Regulate the market more.
b. Regulate the market less.
c. Which one scares us the most.

Any guesses which option the government would answer ?

I think the answer is

d. Which ever option makes the most money for the ministers and her their praise singers.
 
kilps said:
occasional contrabution? looks like you have a good number of posts under your belt!
True - but then again I've been a contributor to this forum for some time - note my join date...
 
Hey Dominic - latest state of play on this one? If I remember correctly, submissions had to be in by 08/03, followed by parliamentary hearings? Such hearings scheduled yet? (May be a good excuse to fly Kulula!) Most important aspect from my point of view are any material changes to licensee definitions...
 
mbs said:
Hey Dominic - latest state of play on this one? If I remember correctly, submissions had to be in by 08/03, followed by parliamentary hearings? Such hearings scheduled yet? (May be a good excuse to fly Kulula!) Most important aspect from my point of view are any material changes to licensee definitions...
portfolio hearings are scheduled to begin 17 May and continue for some time

too early to tell on the license definitions - i am sure most submissions have something to say about it. imho i think it is workable with a little tinkering and some real clarity on what is meant by application services and what categories are going to be exempted by ICASA subsequent to the Act being passed. I can only believe that interpretation and implementation will be practically guided and from what i have seen from the Malaysians (who have 5 years experience with a convergence act behind them) this is what happens. imho again i think a lot of the fuss raised by the Online Publisher's Association and others regarding content is a complete red herring...i think the worry is based on an apprehension that controls on content will apply on the Internet (leading to licences being required for online publishers) but methinks provisions controlling content should rather be seen as relating to broadcasting type services. The DoC has stated that the "Bill does not seek to regulate content" and greater regulation online than offline would obviously be constitutionally highly dubious.

splat has motivated in its submission for the inclusion of explicit recognition of the role of the CB in giving substance to the right to communication which includes the right to access to communications...we belive that under a constitutional democracy this should be the departure point. Take a basic human right and figure out how to make it accessible for as many as possible. It should also, include an explicit provision as found in its Malaysian counterpart to the effect that "nothing in this Act should be interpreted as restricting freedom of speech".

no such thing as a short answer from a ......
 
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*chortle* Didn't expect a short answer - a garrulous reply adds to proper understanding in most cases, particularly given the context. CB = Competitions Board? Did splat do the group submission thing with SMEs/civil society/academia, or go it alone?
 
mbs said:
*chortle* Didn't expect a short answer - a garrulous reply adds to proper understanding in most cases, particularly given the context. CB = Competitions Board? Did splat do the group submission thing with SMEs/civil society/academia, or go it alone?
Convergence Bill. We wuzz lone rangers. Have to deliver a seminar on it soon so will share further late night learnings.
 
However, In a desperate bid to protect the gravy train, our lawmakers are so blinded by greed and cartel protection that they have no clue what they are trying to legislate against, and then they write their laws so poorly that they are forced to selectively enforce them as they see fit.

Telecommunication is widely defined as the transmitting of information over a distance. Distance is acheived by any medium, cable, wireless, space, etc. and Information is widely defined to include data.

ICASA has to give type approval to any equipment that is capable of transmitting information over a distance. Can we appreciate the magnitude of that. Your PC hard drive transmits information over a distance (there are no limits to the regulated distance in the act), nearly every component of your PC handles and transmits data at some stage over some distance. A white board is used to transmit information over a distance, as is a digital projector, as is a ball point pen.

Routers and switches which do not connect directly to the telecommunication network of telkom/sno (highly connected government fatcats) are not excluded from this type approval. The type approval then extends to interconnected devices indirectly interconnected to these networks (although interconnection is not the criteria for type approval - I am just illustrating a point). By extension then your hard drive, wired cctv camera, and a myriad of other components used everyday, are "indirectly connected" to the PSTN, meaning that not only must all these items be type approved, but you need an ICASA licence to use a hard drive or CCTV camera.

To further demonstrate how this legislation is designed to protect the interests of a priviledged few, put yourselves in the shoes of a "previously disadvantaged" (that is who the act claims to be assisting) small company that attempts to import any of these compnents.

Upon entry they will be detained for inspection and written release by SANS (R9000.00 CB test report and R1070 Letter of Authority) if they use electrical power. Then they need to be approved by ICASA with another table of fees, even the sticker eventually issued must be paid for.

But that is not the worst. if you have a 108mbps model and a 54 mbps model say TN108X and TN054X you shall pay those fees and follow those procedures for both items.

To top it all , if importer Y has already obtained SANS and ICASA approval for model TN108X and importer BEE decides to Import TN108X importer BEE must now follow the whole procedure and pay the same fees again.

Products that are certified by the USA and UK and other european countries by issuance of the CE or UL mark, are not good enough for this backward third world country, on the strength of those certificates.No South Africa wants a CB Test Report and Certificate, regardless of those certifications. The percentage of manufacturers in the world who ascribe to a CB Certification is less than 5%.

Is it any wonder that the law cannot be applied consistently. It is written and rewritten so often, that we have clear evidence of hidden motive and agenda. If the lawmakers actually had the intention to do what they say, they could use clear and unambigous language, but they are trying to mask the real motives (enrich a priviledged few fatcats) within the law. And law being what it is, they just cannot achieve their objectives with the obscure wording they are trying to use, hence the constant need to revise and rewrite it.

Don't be fooled. While the preamble states that this act is designed to faciliate access to electronic communication, it is clearly designed to exclude the majority of south africans from any financial benefit from this technology, you see that is the actual intent, to protect the financial benefit of telkom and now a new clique of specially selected and connected individuals who will milk this technology (which belongs to everybody) for financial gain.
 
The real purpose of the act.

To exclude the majority of South Africans from any financial benefit from telecommunications technology.

To supply or import any telecommunications equipment, you need type approval.
Ever considered what is actually included in telecommunications equipment. telecommunication : transmission of information over a distance. (No minimum or maximum distance is defined in the act) Information: Knowledge and data amongst other things.

Make a list of everything we use that transmits information over a distance.

1. Every component of your PC transmits information over distance all the time.harddrives, graphic cards, CCTV camera's, the list is endless.
2. A teacher in the classroom transmits information over distance, as does a whiteboard, a ball point pen, ad infinitum.

Do you see ICASA worrying about those devices though. (Evidence 1: Hidden Agenda)

Do we appreciate what this all costs the "previously disadvantaged" or SMME, (whom the act claims to represent) should such a person wish to strike up a distribution agreement with a telecommunications equipment manufacturer.

1. If these devices use power it shall be tested and issued with a CB Test report and certificate from SANS (Test Cost: R9000.00, LOA R1070)
2. Then the item must be approved by ICASA (The schedule of fees for that is too long to list here)

It doesn't matter if somebody else has already tested the same piece of equipment from the same factory and it has been found to comply to safety standards. Every individual who wishes to sell it shall reproduce this procedure and fees. (The amount been milked here makes SANS and ICASA bigger evils than Telkom)

It doesn't matter if the device carries CE or UL or CCC certification. These are the certifications approving a device for safe use in the largest economies in the world. (USA, UK, and China) you still need to follow these procedures for every model and every modification you make to any model. (People the amount of money been pocketed here is stupendous)

Then lets say you have approval for model TN054X, 54mpbs router, now you improve to 108mbps TN108X, the performance and model change mean you must go through the entire procedure again.

How many previosuly disadvantaged or smme's can afford this. ( Evidence 2: Exclude new participants from the market - except well connected fatcats - SNO)

Our goverment has taken the most natural extension of human interaction - it did all start by shouting (transmitting) greetings across mountains (information over distance) and packaged it in a manner that any communication between people in this country is taxed and enriches a few fat cats.

Wake up, you're all debating licensing and equipment and what not else. Smell the roses and see what the act is actually about.

Evidence three - the act doesn't intend to regulate what you think it does. Why else is it vagueness and ambiguity the very cause for so many rewrites, and amendments.
 
wbgworld said:
Routers and switches which do not connect directly to the telecommunication network of telkom/sno (highly connected government fatcats) are not excluded from this type approval. The type approval then extends to interconnected devices indirectly interconnected to these networks (although interconnection is not the criteria for type approval - I am just illustrating a point). By extension then your hard drive, wired cctv camera, and a myriad of other components used everyday, are "indirectly connected" to the PSTN, meaning that not only must all these items be type approved, but you need an ICASA licence to use a hard drive or CCTV camera.
And because John Welch and Vusi Pikoli from the NPA can't be bribed by certain Telecoms firms they will never prosecute you for using a communications device that passes the:"What would the reasonable man have done test?"

And where does all of this leave us the consumers of IT? Up the creek without a paddle ofcourse - unless the consumers leave Arrow-Altech, www.hux.co.za and www.billion.co.za behind swinging in the trees while we simply import the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DSLAM technology that we need ourselves.

The difference between it and a Gigabyte switch are that Dslams uses fixed width bit rates(ATM protocol) and ethernet uses variable bit rates down a copper wire. It causes the same interference that the ethernet protocol causes. Icasa's refusal to type approve this stuff proves that Telkom is firmly in control of Icasa.

Somewhere on this forum I read that customs are now confiscating imports of electronic equipment - modems anything for which there is not a certificate.
Thankfully Vdsl and Vdsl2 Dslams are compatable with legacy Adsl/Adsl2+ modems so that we would only have to smuggle in the Dslams.

dominic how are we going to get these R6000 Dslams past customs or must we smuggle it in via Mozambique?
 
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captainwifi said:
dominic how are we going to get these R6000 Dslams past customs or must we smuggle it in via Mozambique?
LOL. You'll just have to satisfy customs (acting on the advice of ICASA) that they have a legitimate purpose....
 
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