Creation over Evolution

[Rkootknir]

this isn't exactly my field, but wouldn't adaptation give rise to mutations and natural selection which is then transferred between between generations? for eg. developing a long neck over a period of time is a mutation of sorts?

You've got it the wrong way round. What probably happens is that there is some sort of animal (the ancestor of the giraffe). This animal undergoes a random mutation in its genes that causes its offspring to "suddenly" have long necks. These long necks are probably a beneficial mutation (the animal can now forage on material that is too high for other animals to reach) and so it's naturally selected in each sucessive generation.

That's how I understand it (and how it has been explained to me), but this example is hopelessy simplified. However, it does help to understand the mechanisms involved.

 

[supersunbird]

Feels like Anantech News and Politics

/me soaks in soothing warmth of debates, discussions and flamewars...

Puhleeease, you should all know by now that the universe was created by the Flying Spagetti Monster, I propose his teachings to be taught in school to everyone! Ramen!

 

[Prometheus]

Conclusion? The Noah's ark story (while not completely false - it seems to based on a flood that ocurred in Sumaria at that time) certainly has some big problems in explaining the genetic diversity we see today.

Not necessarily. What this 'Rev Dr' Lenny Flank is not realizing is that most creationists are not in agreement over everything. I don't know of any which claim that "genetic mutations always produce a LOSS in information". Whatever these alleles are (if only they would use plain english), I'll assume they refer to some kind of gene. Most people don't claim that they went from 16 to 400 in 4000 years time. I for one tend to look at the scientific evidence which shows that the flood occured as far back as 50,000 years.

Found a link...
Noah's Ark Search
Don't have time to look through everything though.

 

[supersunbird]

You've got it the wrong way round. What probably happens is that there is some sort of animal (the ancestor of the giraffe). This animal undergoes a random mutation in its genes that causes its offspring to suddenly have long necks. These long necks are probably a beneficial mutation (the animal can now forage on material that is too high for other animals to reach) and so it's naturally selected in each sucessive generation.

That's how I understand it (and how it has been explained to me), but this example is hopelessy simplified. However, it does help to understand the mechanisms involved.

Another thing is dogs, look at the many breeds we have created, breeds of cat as well, heck, 20 years ago someone managed to breed black faced zebra finches, and now they are not even too scarse anymore. leave these things lone for long enough and eventually you will have different species.

 

[jabulani]

the universe was created by the Flying Spagetti Monster, I propose his teachings to be taught in school to everyone! Ramen!

/jabu bows to the great Flying Spaghetti Monster in awe and reverence

Ramen! Ramen!

 

[Highflyer_GP]

What probably happens is that there is some sort of animal (the ancestor of the giraffe). This animal undergoes a random mutation in its genes that causes its offspring to "suddenly" have long necks. These long necks are probably a beneficial mutation (the animal can now forage on material that is too high for other animals to reach) and so it's naturally selected in each sucessive generation.

ahhh that explains it

 

[Highflyer_GP]

What this 'Rev Dr' Lenny Flank is not realizing is that most creationists are not in agreement over everything.

so in other words...

Are you now going to dismiss their claims and selectively belief what you want to belief

The question is... where did apes evolve from...

argument works both ways...if intelligent design and creation existed then who created God?

 

[Rkootknir]

Not necessarily. What this 'Rev Dr' Lenny Flank is not realizing is that most creationists are not in agreement over everything. I don't know of any which claim that "genetic mutations always produce a LOSS in information".

I've just done a quick search of the three "top" creationist websites: Kent Hovind (Dr Dino), Answers In Genesis and the Institute for Creation Research. They all make this claim in one way or another, Kent's being the most idiotic, while AIG tries to obfuscate the issue.

Whatever these alleles are

Simply a fast way of saying: "One of two or more alternative forms of a gene that can have the same locus on homologous chromosomes and are responsible for alternative traits".

(if only they would use plain english), I'll assume they refer to some kind of gene. Most people don't claim that they went from 16 to 400 in 4000 years time. I for one tend to look at the scientific evidence which shows that the flood occured as far back as 50,000 years.

Fine, but I'm quite sure that if you do the calculation you will find that 50 000 years are still not quite long enough.

 

[Prometheus]

You have yet to show such a hole. When you think you've found one, please make sure that you are aware of what the TOE predicts and does not predict.

Seems you missed this one in my post...

Their theories claim for our brain capacity to have doubled in only a few thousand years, an increase over four times as much as in any other period throughout history. Again where are their explanation.

argument works both ways...if intelligent design and creation existed then who created God?

Only one problem with you argument: intelligent design and creation is bound to the physical universe, God exists outside of it.

 

[Highflyer_GP]

Only one problem with you argument: intelligent design and creation is bound to the physical universe, God exists outside of it.

that seems even more flawed if God exists outside the physical universe then surely he can have his way outside the universe and he has no effect on what exists inside? kinda like you existing on earth but being able to water plants on pluto

 

[scatlett]

If God made the universe, then who made God?

If you can accept that God simply exists, then why can't you accept that the universe simply exists?

 

[Highflyer_GP]

If you can accept that God simply exists, then why can't you accept that the universe simply exists?

lol thats called hypocracy, instead of trying to make sense of things they find every possible excuse to try and make the fairytale seem real. instead of looking towards the future and trying to better understand the known universe which may eventually answer the question of where we came from, lots of people instead try and look back to an ancient story to provide answers. if it wasn't for this backward way of thinking we could be progressing at a much faster rate

 

[Prometheus]

that seems even more flawed if God exists outside the physical universe then surely he can have his way outside the universe and he has no effect on what exists inside? kinda like you existing on earth but being able to water plants on pluto

If God made the universe, then who made God?

If you can accept that God simply exists, then why can't you accept that the universe simply exists?

Again, your thinking is based on the laws of a physical universe, which didn't exist at first...

 

[Prometheus]

instead of trying to make sense of things they find every possible excuse to try and make the fairytale seem real. instead of looking towards the future and trying to better understand the known universe which may eventually answer the question of where we came from, lots of people instead try and look back to an ancient story to provide answers. if it wasn't for this backward way of thinking we could be progressing at a much faster rate

I thought we were progressing at a very fast pace, but then again it seems that supercomputers, atom-smashers, quantum computers, and quantum physics (which seem to suggest a universe outside our own) were only a dream.

 

[Rkootknir]

Seems you missed this one in my post...

Their theories claim for our brain capacity to have doubled in only a few thousand years, an increase over four times as much as in any other period throughout history. Again where are their explanation.

Actually, IIRC it was approximately 4 million years. From a brain size of 450cc to the 1400cc of a modern male brain (I'm assuming you mean size by capacity?). What is interesting is that the Neanderthals had brains which were approximately 1600cc in size yet all evidence shows that they were quite a bit less intelligent than modern humans.

Anyway, the unusually fast evolution of the brain (4 million years is quite fast on the evolutionary timescale) is usually explained in the following way:

Some distant ancestor underwent a mutation that resulted in a larger brain, this mutation was so beneficial that it became one of the dominant evolutionary forces in the ancestral human species. Much of the genes involved in brain development and the "housekeeping" of the brain are related and so a small mutation could have a large nett effect. It is this extreme selective pressure of more complex brains that probably caused the fast evolution of the brain in humans.

You can find lots of articles and studies on this with a simple Google search.

 

[scatlett]

We know that our ancestors were backward in their way of thinking for most things, why would we trust their teachings about some superior force that even they admit they have never seen?

Its called brainwashing. You were taught by your parents/guardians (who you trusted) when you were small and now you can't imagine a world different to the world you were taught about.

 

[Highflyer_GP]

I thought we were progressing at a very fast pace, but then again it seems that supercomputers, atom-smashers, quantum computers, and quantum physics (which seem to suggest a universe outside our own) were only a dream.

wasn't referring to technology but to the overall understanding of the universe. but if we talking technology wise here, imagine how much further ahead we could have been if certain religious organisations hadn't dimmed any hopes and put a stranglehold around creative ideas during and before the middle ages. it's only after the renaissance that people were allowed more freedom of expression, and this was only barely 300 years ago that people were allowed to think out of the box

bottom line: people back then were forced into believing and following certain things, they had no choice in the matter. choosing otherwise would mean a punishment in one way or another. just ask the witches. or heretics.

 

[Prometheus]

wasn't referring to technology but to the overall understanding of the universe. but if we talking technology wise here, imagine how much further ahead we could have been if certain religious organisations hadn't dimmed any hopes and put a stranglehold around creative ideas during and before the middle ages. it's only after the renaissance that people were allowed more freedom of expression, and this was only barely 300 years ago that people were allowed to think out of the box

Finally I can agree with you on something. That mindset is still however alive in many parts of society through laws which have absolutely nothing to do with "protection" as they claim. Today however the punishment seem to be prison time.

 

[kilo39]

What I would like to know is what gives us our ideas for quantum theory or the bow and arrow? Why don't dolphins have similar ability - besides the fact they live in the ocean?

Where does our particular quirk come from - the ability to reason and make tools? I still say man came from apes (or a related ancestor!?) - but - reality is still open to interpretation - and does not exclude God.

Magic dust, Adam & Eve are just parables - but that does not exclude some germ of an idea - usually there is some element of truth in all great tales.

In fact - now that I remember - there is an archetypal Adam and Eve... the story of the seven eves. A quick search on google yields these two interesting links:

http://globaltv.workopolis.com/servlet/News/qprinter/20010526/FC26FRON

http://www.ramsdale.org/dna7.htm

 

[Prometheus]

What I can't understand is how crazy all these evolution theories are, yet some people still belief them and call everything rational to be fictionist old tales.

So I am suppose to belief that:

Nothing + nothing = two elements + time = 92 natural elements + time = all physical laws and a completely structured universe of galaxies, systems, stars, planets, and moons orbiting in perfect balance and order.

Dirt + water + time = living creatures.

And people want to convince me that this is less absurd than:
Nothing + Intelligent Being = Matter + Intelligent Being = All living creatures + Intelligent Being.
At least this makes sense to me if everything did indeed start from nothing.

I refer you to the EVOLUTION CRUNCHER