Dear Mr Knott-Craig

[Debbie]

Dear Mr Knott-Craig,

There are a few things I would like to ask you, and I sincerely hope that you or a Vodacom representative will be able to answer my questions.

You are quoted by iWeek in their June 30 issue as saying that the 1996 Telecommunications Act has been one of the best pieces of legislation of its kind in the world. I assume you are familiar with this Act, and the specific objectives it set out to achieve. Could you perhaps point out to me, out of the 17-odd objectives in the Act, which ones you think have been achieved?

The second question I have is one that has been asked before - to which operators in which countries would you like SA cellphone tariffs to be compared with? MoneyWeb reports that, when this question was asked of you, you responded that 'independent data provided by organisations like the OECD and Prodata, which Vodacom quotes from in its submissions, provided probably the most accurate comparisons'. I looked on the map and I cannot find a country called OECD, nor one called Prodata. Are they in Eastern Europe perhaps? Eastern Europe has lots of funny-named countries, and perhaps I missed the one called "Prodata".

A response would be greatly appreciated.

Sincerely,
Debbie Love

(In terms of the Promotion of Access to Information Act, Vodacom is required to make the "Postal and street address, phone and fax number and, if available, the electronic mail address of the head of the private body"
available in the PAIA manual. This information is clearly not stated on Vodacom's PAIA manual. I request that you comply with the law and immediately make this information available.)

 

[dominic]

You are quoted by iWeek in their June 30 issue as saying that the 1996 Telecommunications Act has been one of the best pieces of legislation of its kind in the world. I assume you are familiar with this Act, and the specific objectives it set out to achieve. Could you perhaps point out to me, out of the 17-odd objectives in the Act, which ones you think have been achieved?

And at the same time please confirm my sincerely held suspicion that your objectives as head of Vodacom are completely at odds with the attainment of the objectives set out in the Telecommunications Act (things like universal access, competition and affordability)

 

[Debbie]

Uh huh dominic. The main reason why cellular has taken off in SA is due to the FAILURE of the telecoms Act! If it had succeeded, then cellphone penetration in SA would be a fraction of what it is now!

 

[morebroadband]

Nice one Debbie!

 

[R4tt3xx]

Prehaps we should ask the same question of Telkom and ICASA

 

[Debbie]

Prehaps we should ask the same question of Telkom and ICASA

What, "where is Prodata?"?

 

[R4tt3xx]

Have you had any response back yet debbie ?

 

[Debbie]

Have you had any response back yet debbie ?

Haha! Nope! Well not for this one anyway. I sent them another serious one asking about their PAIA manual though. I got a lame-brain response from some idiot telling me to go to certain websites if I wanted to do my own PAIA manual. I responded to the tit that I didn't want to do my onw one, I wanted to see a complete and lawfully-compliant version of Vodacom's PAIA manual. They responded that my request had been fwded to the "Risks" department.... Sounds ominous hey...!

 

[alacos]

I responded to the tit that I didn't want to do my onw one, I wanted to see a complete and lawfully-compliant version of Vodacom's PAIA manual.

Debbie, the last time I checked the gazetted rules re PAIA manuals the position was that a body with a website had to make its PAIA manual available on its website (as well as filing it with the SAHRC etc). AFAIK that's still the position -- so that Vodacom are in fact in breach of the rules if they have a website and their manual isn't on it.

Michael Alachouzos

 

[Debbie]

Debbie, the last time I checked the gazetted rules re PAIA manuals the position was that a body with a website had to make its PAIA manual available on its website (as well as filing it with the SAHRC etc). AFAIK that's still the position -- so that Vodacom are in fact in breach of the rules if they have a website and their manual isn't on it.

Michael Alachouzos

Mike, they seem to have something purporting to be a PAIA manual. But this is quite clearly not the complete thing. For example, they do not name a CIO and give contact details, and instead it seems like they are trying to pass off a general "customer care" email and address in lieu of this. And they don't seem to take my requests seriously enough. Who am I supposed to alert to this?

 

[LoneGunman]

Debbie2, use a fax machine - and fax the same request, on a daily basis to them.

Also, phone them and ask for their Legal Department, or the name of the firm that handles their legal affairs, and fax your query to THEM. Vodacom's legal dpt or the firm that has the Vodacom account, is likely to be far more twitchy and responsive, when receiving a communication indicating that they are in non compliance with legal requirements.

Companies are routinely apathetic locally, and figure that ignoring someone will (usually correctly) make that person go away.
Legal departments and law firms, on the other hand, are not.

Find out who/where Vodacom's legal matters are handled by, and send your query to them, and followup with phone calls asking who's looking at this, and begin polite pestering..

 

[kaspaas]

Mike, they seem to have something purporting to be a PAIA manual. But this is quite clearly not the complete thing. For example, they do not name a CIO and give contact details, and instead it seems like they are trying to pass off a general "customer care" email and address in lieu of this. And they don't seem to take my requests seriously enough. Who am I supposed to alert to this?

Debbie, this could become a test for the HRC to see if they really have teeth to take on the giants.

You have given Vodacom enough time to respond on such a minute issue. Now take it to the people who have to administer the law.

 

[w1z4rd]

with an email to fax service.... i could quickly automate daily requests

 

[dominic]

debbie2

the big problem with the promotion of access to info act is what to do when someone like Vodacom refuses to play ball...on an [extremely] quick fly through their site i do not see their manual displayed as alacos rightly points out it should be

remedy - press criminal charges under the Act (remember all those Buys Inc. ads with the jail cell?) - i would not put any hope in the human rights commission (they are fighting with each other as the CCMA is on strike...sigh)...criminal charges would be fun but I cannot see the SAPS taking it too seriously

if you request info from them and they decide they do not want to give it to you and you belive this refusal is not justified in terms of the Act then you would have to make an application to the High Court (they have 30 days within which to make a decision)...most folk would give up at this stage.

the act sets out the various grounds on which they can refuse to divulge requested info (and this assumes that the info requested is necessary for the protection or exercise of your rights...which is a nice vague phrase for lawyers to argue about). so they can refuse if the info requested involves, for example, the personal information of a third party etc etc (the full set of grounds are in the act - will look it up if you are interested and swear off cheese spread for 2 hours)

EDIT - wait found it...although there is a strong argument that they are not displaying it correctly my view is that it is substantially compliant with the act. under the act voda can designate a point of entry for requests (it does not have to be the CIO or some such - it can be a third party as it is in this case)

 

[Debbie]

Thanks for the comments.

dominic I didn't know that they could designate a 'third party' access point. I fail to see what the point of that whole section in the Act is, if the company can simply say, "hey, here's a random number you can call". Nevertheless thanks for pointing it out to me.

I agree it is difficult to find their PAIA.

 

[dominic]

Thanks for the comments.

dominic I didn't know that they could designate a 'third party' access point. I fail to see what the point of that whole section in the Act is, if the company can simply say, "hey, here's a random number you can call". Nevertheless thanks for pointing it out to me.

I agree it is difficult to find their PAIA.

not a random number at all - must be set up to deal with information requests

for example - i have a number of SMME clients who do not want to deal with information requests so they can appoint me as the "head" of the organisation for the purposes of receiving their requests

in this situation they are saying that the vodacom group of companies have created a single entry point thru customer care...this is probably fair enough

the point about it being difficult to find is important - the link to the document must be "reasonably noticeable" if it is to be regarded as incorporated by reference, i.e. when you put up legal notices on a site you cannot hide them away - they must be reasonably available before they will become binding on users of the web site (if it is reasonably noticeable + a few other requirements then it will be regarded as binding on a usern whether or not they actually follow the link and read the document....the logic being that if they saw the link and had the opportunity to follow it and read the legal notices, but didn't that is the user's problem in much the same way as it is my problem if i do not read the terms and conditions on the bank of a quote etc before signing it)

technically therefore i do not think they have complied with the act as regards the publication of the web on their web site...

 

[TheRoDent]

This whole PAIA crap is just that... Crap.

WTF pays for the bandwidth that it's going to cost every business to serve out a half meg PDF document full of crap, that's really just boilerplate nonsense, with a few details filled in?

It's insane. Are small business now still forced to comply with this latest inane law?

 

[dominic]

This whole PAIA crap is just that... Crap.

WTF pays for the bandwidth that it's going to cost every business to serve out a half meg PDF document full of crap, that's really just boilerplate nonsense, with a few details filled in?

It's insane. Are small business now still forced to comply with this latest inane law?

no and they probably never will be

the law will have value to some - especially when dealing with local government - but as always the law is a rich person's privelege

 

[ettubrute]

serve out a half meg PDF document full of crap

Saw it implemented this way on a friends site. Quite legal, all info's there, and the page is only 18 kilobytes. So, it's not that bad!

But I agree, it's a load of BS. Had mine done as well, cost me R200,- and saved me about two hours to have it done, giving me a decent profit on the deal!

Back to the topic though, with a question: If a company like Vodacom does not comply, what are the penalties that can be levied by the HRC?