Degree or diploma?

[cguy]

I have seen IT people with no qualification outperforming guys with degrees.

In my view it is depressing to have to study for 3 to 4 years, to get that degree and then only start your IT career. I have seen guys, with no qualification, started immediately, yes, got terrible pay, and had to do the dog work for years, but by the time the degree guys came in, these dudes had already 3/4 years experience, and they could outperform the degree guys easily.

I don't agree with the above sentiment - the first line is simply stating that the skill level distribution of the those with degrees overlaps those those without for at least one task, which goes without saying. As for the rest, the fact that you're drawing your sample from the set of people that do work that is done by both degree and non-degree workers creates a huge selection bias.

 

[AdrianH]

Here is the major difference. With a diploma, you have a salary ceiling. With a degree you do not. A company will always tell you that they can't pay someone with a diploma more than what they pay a person with a degree, even if you are the best employee under the sun. When it gets to promotion time, the degree person will be promoted before the diploma person and you will forever accept it because he/she is suppose to be higher qualified.

Guess I am the exception then...lucky me

 

[DominionZA]

Guess I am the exception then...lucky me

Makes two of us then... Thought about getting my degree "just because", but no need yet. 3 year diploma has served me just fine.

 

[maumau]

Do you need maths for a degree or is maths lit OK.

 

[AdrianH]

Makes two of us then... Thought about getting my degree "just because", but no need yet. 3 year diploma has served me just fine.

Maybe it's just us Vale okes

 

[BigAl-sa]

Do you need maths for a degree or is maths lit OK.

Maths lit will not get you into any technical/degree course.

 

[maumau]

Thought so, thanks BigAl-sa.

 

[cguy]

Here is the major difference. With a diploma, you have a salary ceiling. With a degree you do not. A company will always tell you that they can't pay someone with a diploma more than what they pay a person with a degree, even if you are the best employee under the sun. When it gets to promotion time, the degree person will be promoted before the diploma person and you will forever accept it because he/she is suppose to be higher qualified.

If you can do it, study for the degree. Just keep in mind that getting a degree does not guarantee you a high paying job upfront but in the long run, it will benefit you more than a diploma. I am speaking based on my 30 years experience and I have worked for 4 corporates.

Guess I am the exception then...lucky me

Makes two of us then... Thought about getting my degree "just because", but no need yet. 3 year diploma has served me just fine.

I personally have never seen a person's paper qualification stand in the way of promotion - how you compare to your colleagues is really all that matters. To me, the most significant way a degree seems to benefit a career is by allowing one to do entirely different jobs - often with a better demand-to-supply ratio, and/or higher fun-factor.

 

[Messugga]

I personally have never seen a person's paper qualification stand in the way of promotion - how you compare to your colleagues is really all that matters. To me, the most significant way a degree seems to benefit a career is by allowing one to do entirely different jobs - often with a better demand-to-supply ratio, and/or higher fun-factor.

My brother in law only had a diploma in mechanical engineering (can't remember the exact name of the qualification) and he hit a very hard ceiling fairly early on. As soon as he upgraded it to a degree, he was allowed to get significant promotions.
I know that at some of my clients you're also doomed to probably not climb very high up the ladder if you don't have at least some form of qualification, a degree bring preferable.

How common this is, I don't know, but it definitely happens.

 

[cguy]

My brother in law only had a diploma in mechanical engineering (can't remember the exact name of the qualification) and he hit a very hard ceiling fairly early on. As soon as he upgraded it to a degree, he was allowed to get significant promotions.
I know that at some of my clients you're also doomed to probably not climb very high up the ladder if you don't have at least some form of qualification, a degree bring preferable.

How common this is, I don't know, but it definitely happens.

My response was in the context of IT (the OP is comparing CS Degree vs. IT Diploma). Engineering is different, and has licensing, professional/legal body membership requirements, etc. Same with medicine and law.

 

[Lord Nikon6]

Shay, I am in the IT industry 31 years now. I started before PC's even existed . In my view the degree is the better option.

But, let me also add, over time I have found all these qualifications to be smoke and mirrors, meaning, when companies hire IT staff, they do not care what qualification you have, they are only interested in can you do the job, or can you not.

The qualification and degree, helps you to get the job, but does not guarantee you you will be able to do the job.

I have seen many graduates that came in with huge chips on their shoulders, demanding huge pay and thinking they will be up and running and doing the job immediately. Take it from me, a rude awakening awaits you as to what you study, and how it is in the real world.

I have seen IT people with no qualification outperforming guys with degrees.

In my view it is depressing to have to study for 3 to 4 years, to get that degree and then only start your IT career. I have seen guys, with no qualification, started immediately, yes, got terrible pay, and had to do the dog work for years, but by the time the degree guys came in, these dudes had already 3/4 years experience, and they could outperform the degree guys easily.

With that I am not saying don't go study, all qualifications are good, and it is simple fact that most companies will simply throw your CV in the trashcan if you don't have a qualification, won't even consider you.

But, in the end, your question, if you are going to do the qualification, in my view the degree is the better route to go.

One last thing, I hope you are sure this is the career you want to do, as it is not for everybody, I have seen many who could not cope with this career and rather moved on to other careers. It is brutal if you or your parents paid for your studies for 3 or 4 years, and supporting you, and then you find out this is not the correct occupation for you. So be very very sure this is what you want to do. Don't get sucked in by it is a good paying job, yes it is, but, believe me, you pay back for the salary you receive.

I can also relate to this. I started working in IT the day after I wrote my last matric exam. Worked in an IT shop for little pay and ridiculous hours(7 days a week), after that moved on to tech support, and have been moved up to development last year. All I did was some Linux short courses. I am only starting my Diploma this year, but I am already fairly established in the industry(I think so at least)

Our development team's chief system Architect is entirely self taught as well.

I am not saying the OP should not study though, go ahead and do it, do the CS degree if you can, and if you are prepared for all the maths in it, otherwise do the Diploma.

 

[slimeball]

Personally i think diplomas are a waste of time. Many of the people i studied with decided to do a degree after completing, in their own words, "a ridiculously easy course".

I think diplomas don't challenge you as much as degrees do. Try enrol for a BSc in engineering and you'll see what i mean. It's a really challenging course and getting through it all really pays off in the end.

Now there are many types of Diplomas, for example Rosebank College offers a diploma in IT ( Software Development ) the course outline for year one is as follows:

• Programming 1A
• Programming Logic and Design
• Business Information Systems
• Introduction to Quantitative Thinking Techniques
• Programming 1B
• IT Professional Practice
• Web Development (Introduction)
• Operation Systems 1A

As you can see they mainly focus on programming as well as information systems. Now compare this to first year engineering at UCT (Electrical and Computer Engineering):

• Computer Science 1015
• Introduction to Electronic Engineering
• Mathematics IA for Engineers
• Engineering Drawing
• Physics A for Engineers
• Africa: Culture, Identity & Globalisation
• Computer Science 1016
• Introduction to Electrical Engineering
• Mathematics IB for Engineers
• Physics B for Engineers

As you can see the courses are more abstract. You do 2 computer science modules which teach you the theory you need to solve computing problems using a mathematical approach. Those 2 computer science modules would be enough to teach you anything that the diploma could teach you with regards to programming in the first year.

Additionally you can see the presence of two physics and mathematics modules. These teach you how to approach solving engineering problems. The diploma has no mathematical content by the looks of it, these are some of the problems with diplomas.

The entry requirements for the diploma at Rosebank College are ridiculously low, you only need 30% in 'LOLT' (what ever that is? Life orientation?) to gain admission whereas for UCT you need %70 in mathematics and physical science. This already speaks to the value of the education you get at a place like Rosebank College.

Of course you may not have the required matric marks to get into UCT for example, in that case you should rather consider a university of technology such as CPUT which offer BTech degrees. But even still you won't be learning content with the same degree of difficulty as a degree.

Overall BSc/BEng > BTech > Diploma

So called 'diploma mills' are also everywhere across the country and so the reputation of diplomas has suffered as a result.

 

[Tman543]

Overall BSc/BEng > BTech > Diploma

This is probably true for the initial stages of your career, however once each of them gets the required experience, they will be on the same playing field. Then individual characteristics would outshine qualifications.
The best thing about studying is you pick up the vital skill of self learning, to teach yourself something from only education material is invaluable in your future career.

That being said, in terms of getting a job it seems it is a just a stroke of luck (or who you know) that will get you in the door, it is very competitive out there regardless of the field . While certain qualifications may tick some boxes, BEE, AA, gender all play a big part of the hiring process. Qualifications and merit are kinda secondary.

 

[cguy]

This is probably true for the initial stages of your career, however once each of them gets the required experience, they will be on the same playing field. Then individual characteristics would outshine qualifications.
The best thing about studying is you pick up the vital skill of self learning, to teach yourself something from only education material is invaluable in your future career.

What one studies affects the type of experience one gets, which is a significant factor. I do agree, that if two people do the same type of work, and gain the same type of experience, the relative benefit of the one course over the other quickly shrinks.

 

[cguy]

@dmullr You're aware that you're "necroing", right? . Personally, I don't care - but I just wanted to check that you're aware of the dates.

 

[slimeball]

@dmullr You're aware that you're "necroing", right? . Personally, I don't care - but I just wanted to check that you're aware of the dates.

Yip, I've been searching myBB for forum posts regarding education and it seems quite a few were posted many years ago.

 

[TheChamp]

Personally i think diplomas are a waste of time. Many of the people i studied with decided to do a degree after completing, in their own words, "a ridiculously easy course".

I think diplomas don't challenge you as much as degrees do. Try enrol for a BSc in engineering and you'll see what i mean. It's a really challenging course and getting through it all really pays off in the end.

Now there are many types of Diplomas, for example Rosebank College offers a diploma in IT ( Software Development ) the course outline for year one is as follows:

• Programming 1A
• Programming Logic and Design
• Business Information Systems
• Introduction to Quantitative Thinking Techniques
• Programming 1B
• IT Professional Practice
• Web Development (Introduction)
• Operation Systems 1A

As you can see they mainly focus on programming as well as information systems. Now compare this to first year engineering at UCT (Electrical and Computer Engineering):

• Computer Science 1015
• Introduction to Electronic Engineering
• Mathematics IA for Engineers
• Engineering Drawing
• Physics A for Engineers
• Africa: Culture, Identity & Globalisation
• Computer Science 1016
• Introduction to Electrical Engineering
• Mathematics IB for Engineers
• Physics B for Engineers

As you can see the courses are more abstract. You do 2 computer science modules which teach you the theory you need to solve computing problems using a mathematical approach. Those 2 computer science modules would be enough to teach you anything that the diploma could teach you with regards to programming in the first year.

Additionally you can see the presence of two physics and mathematics modules. These teach you how to approach solving engineering problems. The diploma has no mathematical content by the looks of it, these are some of the problems with diplomas.

The entry requirements for the diploma at Rosebank College are ridiculously low, you only need 30% in 'LOLT' (what ever that is? Life orientation?) to gain admission whereas for UCT you need %70 in mathematics and physical science. This already speaks to the value of the education you get at a place like Rosebank College.

Of course you may not have the required matric marks to get into UCT for example, in that case you should rather consider a university of technology such as CPUT which offer BTech degrees. But even still you won't be learning content with the same degree of difficulty as a degree.

Overall BSc/BEng > BTech > Diploma

So called 'diploma mills' are also everywhere across the country and so the reputation of diplomas has suffered as a result.

I think you have a slightly skewed interpretation of what a diploma entails, why don't you get a comparison of a similar diploma from a university of Technology for better perspective?

I am not too familiar with places like Rosebank College but I think their diplomas are on the FET type of curriculum.

 

[slimeball]

I think you have a slightly skewed interpretation of what a diploma entails, why don't you get a comparison of a similar diploma from a university of Technology for better perspective?

I am not too familiar with places like Rosebank College but I think their diplomas are on the FET type of curriculum.

Don't get me wrong, having a diploma is certainly better than not having one. Some diplomas have great course content and are definately worthwhile especially if you don't have they money for a degree.

I just think that if you had the choice between a diploma and a degree that a diploma would 'be a waste of time'. The structured learning that a STEM degree provides is really valuable, challenging and worthwhile especially since people doing diplomas usually end up doing more than one in any case.