Developing the Rooivalk Mk2 would tick many vital boxes

[LazyLion]

THE Department of Defence is considering whether to restart the Rooivalk project, to develop an upgraded version of the strike helicopter for the South African Air Force and perhaps for export.

That will trigger noise, particularly from those who believe the Rooivalk was an unmitigated disaster. Objective analysis suggests otherwise, as has become clear from a recent study of the project commissioned by the Department of Public Enterprises to draw lessons for future major projects.

One finding was that the Rooivalk generated a positive revenue flow for SA: The development and manufacture of 12 aircraft cost about R6.2bn at 2014 exchange rates. Exports of systems developed for the Rooivalk — missiles, stabilised sight, self-protection, health and usage monitoring, and so on — had passed R15.4bn by 2014. A further R7.1bn worth of defence industrial participation work on the Gripen, Hawk, A-109 and A400M aircraft would have been impossible without the skills and technologies established for the Rooivalk project. The exports continue, as does development of those systems. So hardly a disaster....

Full Article here....
http://www.bdlive.co.za/opinion/2016/01/21/developing-the-rooivalk-mk2-would-tick-many-vital-boxes

 

[ThinkCentre]

Not many combat helicopters that can beat the Rooivalk.

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

Secure some orders upfront, which should be feasible given the Rooivalk's admirable track record, and there really should only be upside to this plan.

 

[JStrike]

Not many combat helicopters that can beat the Rooivalk.

Actually, quite a few can. The Rooivalk's biggest asset is it's maintainability

 

[JStrike]

Secure some orders upfront, which should be feasible given the Rooivalk's admirable track record, and there really should only be upside to this plan.

The Rooivalk never managed to get any international orders, so it is doubtful that the v2 version would.
And there is just simply no money for the SANDF to order any. And anyway, they would need to follow the Defence Review if they did have money. Which there isn't

 

[The_Assimilator]

Still too expensive, plus the Rand tanking will make the overseas-bought engines cost even more. Further there's no reason why Denel couldn't have built weapons and equipment for another, more popular combat helicopter such as the Apache.

 

[Zyraz]

Actually, quite a few can. The Rooivalk's biggest asset is it's maintainability

Ill just leave this here ...

Had it not been for the arms embargo, SA would have imported an aircraft and made do with what we could get. Instead, the country developed the Rooivalk and we now have a combat helicopter ideally suited to most likely operations. It has the range and weapons load to be effective, it has demonstrated outstanding capability in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, it is protected against most weapons it might face, and it has outstanding "hot and high" performance.

The latter is best illustrated by its 5,545m "out-of-ground effect" hover ceiling (the height at which it can hover without the cushion of air caused by rotor downwash). The next best is the US Apache (3,866m), followed by the Russian Mi-28 and Ka-52 (3,600m); the Franco-German Tiger (3,200m) and the Chinese WZ-10 (2,000m). The Rooivalk also has the highest cruise speed, the best rate of climb and the best range/weapons load performance, and shares with the Tiger the best power to weight ratio, all factors critical in operations and combat. And it is probably better protected than any of those.

The bottom line is that there is no combat helicopter that can match the Rooivalk in African operations. In fact, there are only two things wrong with the Rooivalk: there are too few, and it still does not have the 10km-range Mokopa missile developed for it even though it is being exported.

 

[konfab]

But if the Rooivalk is so good, why did no one else buy it? The future of Denel looked bleak when Australia was buying; Malaysia would have bought it if we had brought it fully into service, which we did not; and the Turkish opportunity was lost when Eurocopter refused to supply gearboxes.

This part interested me.
Military spending such as a project like this can do wonders for a country's economy if the supply chain is kept to local suppliers. So why then was this outsourced? Are we incapable of designing and manufacturing a gearbox in this country? :wtf:

 

[JStrike]

Ill just leave this here ...

You think that is it's biggest asset?
The Rooivalk is a failure. There is no denying that. It's hover ceiling and climb rate don't change that.

The Apache is simply the best attack helicopter out there.
Here you go. The Rooivalk all the way down at #7 http://www.military-today.com/helicopters/top_9_attack_helicopters.htm

 

[JStrike]

This part interested me.
Military spending such as a project like this can do wonders for a country's economy if the supply chain is kept to local suppliers. So why then was this outsourced? Are we incapable of designing and manufacturing a gearbox in this country? :wtf:

The Rooivalk is a reverse-engineered Aerospetiale Puma and uses the same engines and rotor

 

[Zyraz]

You think that is it's biggest asset?
The Rooivalk is a failure. There is no denying that. It's hover ceiling and climb rate don't change that.

The Apache is simply the best attack helicopter out there.
Here you go. The Rooivalk all the way down at #7 http://www.military-today.com/helicopters/top_9_attack_helicopters.htm

That ceiling makes it ideal in urban environments where your small arms cant reach you and hand held unguided RPG`s etc will also battle for a hit .
The days of full on war are gone mostly , urban warfare is a lot more common.

As the snipers normally say : "He that has the high ground , will win"

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

The Rooivalk never managed to get any international orders, so it is doubtful that the v2 version would.
And there is just simply no money for the SANDF to order any. And anyway, they would need to follow the Defence Review if they did have money. Which there isn't

Yeah I'm vaguely aware there were issues with orders, hence my assertion if they can secure orders before spending too much money I reckon it would be a great idea. If they can't, rather don't build it at all.

 

[Jola]

This part interested me.
Military spending such as a project like this can do wonders for a country's economy if the supply chain is kept to local suppliers. So why then was this outsourced? Are we incapable of designing and manufacturing a gearbox in this country? :wtf:

Economies of scales is a major issue with these projects.

It is just not feasible to make a handful of gearboxes.

 

[JStrike]

That ceiling makes it ideal in urban environments where your small arms cant reach you and hand held unguided RPG`s etc will also battle for a hit .
The days of full on war are gone mostly , urban warfare is a lot more common.

Stop believing what a South African military analyst says, and look at every list out there comparing the best attack helicopters. The Rooivalk is low down on every list.

No 7 on the list I linked to earlier
No 9 on this one http://www.wearethemighty.com/articles/9-best-attack-helicopters-world
Didn't even make the cut here http://www.army-technology.com/features/featuregunship-special-the-top-attack-helicopters/
No 8 https://www.sofmag.com/10-best-attack-helicopters-in-the-world-2015/

The Apache is consistently No 1 or No 2

 

[Zyraz]

Stop believing what a South African military analyst says, and look at every list out there comparing the best attack helicopters. The Rooivalk is low down on every list.

No 7 on the list I linked to earlier
No 9 on this one http://www.wearethemighty.com/articles/9-best-attack-helicopters-world
Didn't even make the cut here http://www.army-technology.com/features/featuregunship-special-the-top-attack-helicopters/
No 8 https://www.sofmag.com/10-best-attack-helicopters-in-the-world-2015/

The Apache is consistently No 1 or No 2

I'm not basing my believes on anything other than the stats that matter in the changed war scenarios that it the most prevalent in today`s war scenes . (Durability , Ceiling being the major ones)
My guess is that the rooivalk suffers in the so called rankings for reasons outside its design.
eg. Exposure , quantity available , training , costs (*relative to country)
US can afford to build /order /train necessary pilots and support staff for hundreds of Apaches .
South Africa and other countries can not .

 

[skeptic_SA]

Stop believing what a South African military analyst says, and look at every list out there comparing the best attack helicopters. The Rooivalk is low down on every list.

No 7 on the list I linked to earlier
No 9 on this one http://www.wearethemighty.com/articles/9-best-attack-helicopters-world
Didn't even make the cut here http://www.army-technology.com/features/featuregunship-special-the-top-attack-helicopters/
No 8 https://www.sofmag.com/10-best-attack-helicopters-in-the-world-2015/

The Apache is consistently No 1 or No 2

No Airwolf on any of those list
Am disapoint

 

[greg_SA]

Stop believing what a South African military analyst says, and look at every list out there comparing the best attack helicopters. The Rooivalk is low down on every list.

No 7 on the list I linked to earlier
No 9 on this one http://www.wearethemighty.com/articles/9-best-attack-helicopters-world
Didn't even make the cut here http://www.army-technology.com/features/featuregunship-special-the-top-attack-helicopters/
No 8 https://www.sofmag.com/10-best-attack-helicopters-in-the-world-2015/

The Apache is consistently No 1 or No 2

What makes your sources any more credible? They don't look like very technical at all - just magazine articles?

 

[JStrike]

What makes your sources any more credible? They don't look like very technical at all - just magazine articles?

If you can find a more credible source that compares the various attack helicopters and rates the Rooivalk above the Apache, I'll be happy to see it.

But combine all the sources above, with the fact that no international orders for the Rooivalk has ever taken place, it paints a very clear picture. Despite all the excuses as to it's failure

 

[Zyraz]

If you can find a more credible source that compares the various attack helicopters and rates the Rooivalk above the Apache, I'll be happy to see it.

But combine all the sources above, with the fact that no international orders for the Rooivalk has ever taken place, it paints a very clear picture. Despite all the excuses as to it's failure

Real life is not a game of Top-trump cards
eg . Just because you chose the category size or max speed etc and wins is not to say that you actually have the better helicopter in real life situations.
I would rather have a helicopter that stays out of danger (high ceiling) or gets home in the end (more durable) than a helicopter that has more rockets , but receives a lot of hits.



Snipers in a prime spot is a good example , they might not have the most fire power but can do much more damage especially psychologically on the enemy.
Same with the Rooivalk , you know its there , but being out of range of your fire you know you cannot hurt it but it can certainly hurt you.

 

[JStrike]

Real life is not a game of Top-trump cards
eg . Just because you chose the category size or max speed etc and wins is not to say that you actually have the better helicopter in real life situations.
I would rather have a helicopter that stays out of danger (high ceiling) or gets home in the end (more durable) than a helicopter that has more rockets , but receives a lot of hits.

View attachment 334659

Snipers in a prime spot is a good example , they might not have the most fire power but can do much more damage especially psychologically on the enemy.
Same with the Rooivalk , you know its there , but being out of range of your fire you know you cannot hurt it but it can certainly hurt you.

You say you would rather want that.
But it turns out that everyone who has the money to actually purchase attack helicopters has purchased a different brand...