Developing the Rooivalk Mk2 would tick many vital boxes

[Zyraz]

You say you would rather want that.
But it turns out that everyone who has the money to actually purchase attack helicopters has purchased a different brand...

For logistical reasons, not necessarily because the hardware was better.

Lets take laptops for example :
LG vs Dell @ same price
I will buy a lower end Dell laptop instead of same priced LG with higher specs because the after market service and replacement parts for LG laptops is a pain .

That does not all of a sudden make that Dell better hardware wise than the LG laptop.
Does that make sense to you ?

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

You say you would rather want that.
But it turns out that everyone who has the money to actually purchase attack helicopters has purchased a different brand...

I can find some links on google, but nothing concrete to prove or disprove it, but wasn't there much talk about Rooivalk orders also suffering from unwanted influence? e.g. if you have a contract for US military hardware they would threaten to revoke it if you buy from another supplier and stuff like that?

 

[Zyraz]

I can find some links on google, but nothing concrete to prove or disprove it, but wasn't there much talk about Rooivalk orders also suffering from unwanted influence? e.g. if you have a contract for US military hardware they would threaten to revoke it if you buy from another supplier and stuff like that?

Exactly, it comes back to what I said : Logistics played a big role IN THIS POST HERE

 

[Hemi300c]

Just so that the Yanks can copy it and call it the Apache II

 

[JStrike]

For logistical reasons, not necessarily because the hardware was better.

Lets take laptops for example :
LG vs Dell @ same price
I will buy a lower end Dell laptop instead of same priced LG with higher specs because the after market service and replacement parts for LG laptops is a pain .

That does not all of a sudden make that Dell better hardware wise than the LG laptop.
Does that make sense to you ?

There were no orders. None.
Your argument might work as to why one is more popular than the other. Not why one was a complete and utter failure. Not a single order. None whatsoever

 

[Blu82]

Helicopter orders are more political than anything else and are high up on the list opportunities in Turkey and Australia was lost. Or do you think we bought the best ships or planes during the arms deal?

 

[JStrike]

I can find some links on google, but nothing concrete to prove or disprove it, but wasn't there much talk about Rooivalk orders also suffering from unwanted influence? e.g. if you have a contract for US military hardware they would threaten to revoke it if you buy from another supplier and stuff like that?

Sure. Many conspiracy theories and excuses for each order. The end result is not that not a single order was ever places. Not even one.
Excuses don't account for that.

 

[Zyraz]

Helicopter orders are more political than anything else and are high up on the list opportunities in Turkey and Australia was lost. Or do you think we bought the best ships or planes during the arms deal?

+1

Helicopters probably more so than any other military vehicle like planes, boats and tanks because they can go *Virtually anywhere , land anywhere , the ultimate military hide and seek machine.

*They cant go under water , hence the "virtually"

 

[FoXtroT]

Sure. Many conspiracy theories and excuses for each order. The end result is not that not a single order was ever places. Not even one.
Excuses don't account for that.

Stop being so petulant and blind because those reasons are a very real reason why the Rooivalk never received orders. In any case let me break it down for everyone since I have always followed and researched these things.

So the Rooivalk program began back in the 80's after our experiences in Angola. There was a worry (particularly by the Army) that if the Cold War were to go hot we would see thousands of Soviet tanks streaming across the veld and we wouldn't have an effective way to stop them.

Because we were under sanctions it was decided to rather utilise an existing drive-train than try develop the extremely complex engine and gearbox components. (Trust me, aircraft engines are not that easy to develop just ask the Chinese) The two helicopters in use by the SAAF at that time were the Alouette III and Puma. Both were used as test beds and finally the Puma was chosen because it was far more powerful, could fly further and carry more weight. The SAAF planned on fielding 2 squadrons worth of Rooivalks.

So obviously they went ahead and designed but then the end of the Cold War came so that began the slowing down of funds for the military. When '94 came around funds for defence were drastically reduced and although the Rooivalk was sort of an army requirement it was an airforce project and so because the airforce didn't see much use to it they put at a sort of low priority.

By now its the late '90s and the defence force is sitting with this massive project but the SADF aren't too keen on buying it if its only them (too high a unit price since we would need so few), we need to try export it. At the time people were quite interested in it but no one wanted to order it either since it wasn't even in service yet. So the defence force decided that they will take the plunge and buy a squadrons worth in order to give the chopper the credibility it needed for other countries to feel it was safe enough to consider it.

The UK at the time were also looking for their first attack helicopter and they were the first country we showcased the Rooivalk to. They were so impressed with it they wanted to conclude a deal for a fair number of them, however we did not have a locally developed laser guided ATGM (at the time), ala Hellfire, for them to puchase with it. We would have to ask the Americans if we could integrate the Hellfire onto the Rooivalk. They said no so the Brits said no and got the Apache instead.

That was a huge blow to the program but there were still others interested. Australia was one of them however when that competition got down to two choices the Tiger and the Rooivalk; Eurocopter (makers of the Tiger) turned around and said we can't guarantee you engine and gearbox parts for the Rooivalk since they were the makers of the Puma. So the Aussies worried they wouldn't be able to service the choppers went for the Tiger instead. A similar thing happened with the Turkey competition.

Then Malaysia was interested but because all the other deals fell through and the program still hadn't reached full operational service (because the SAAF was just try to keep it potting along waiting for an order) they were worried they would have to pay to high a cost to get the Rooivalk into operational condition.

So there you have it. A concise history as to why the Rooivalk was not an export success, not a heck of a lot to do with the aircraft but a hang of a lot to do with politics.

Fast forward to now and the Rooivalk has finally seen action in the DRC and has acquitted itself excellently. So much in fact that the UN has begged us to keep it on even though their are plenty of Ukranian Hinds available. This has piqued the interest of at least two other countries with a possible third. Malaysia is believed to be one of them the others are not known but I would hazard a guess that Brazil could be one of them.

They would only produce more Rooivalk if they manage to get a decent sized order with these nations. The Rooivalk's avionics would be upgraded (since they are 90's tech) and one or two other things. The problem with Eurocopter has gone away because they have been bought out and the business relationship is a bit better with them. Plus the Rooivalk wouldn't be in direct competition with their products. If the order goes through then we would piggy back on the production line and order another squadrons worth (as is envisioned in the Defence Review) and upgrade our existing examples.

This is of course subject to the Defence Review being approved and appropriate funding allocated.

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

let me break it down for everyone

Found that interesting, thanks

 

[airborne]

Found that interesting, thanks

Agreed, some common sense backed up with reasonable facts.

 

[greg_SA]

If you can find a more credible source that compares the various attack helicopters and rates the Rooivalk above the Apache, I'll be happy to see it.

But combine all the sources above, with the fact that no international orders for the Rooivalk has ever taken place, it paints a very clear picture. Despite all the excuses as to it's failure

Sorry, don't have time to indulge this, but your reverences are still very lame.

 

[greg_SA]

Stop being so petulant and blind because those reasons are a very real reason why the Rooivalk never received orders. In any case let me break it down for everyone since I have always followed and researched these things....

Thanks, great post.

My understand of most military and space deals is that they are very political and at high levels between between the countries involved. It is very difficult (almost impossible) to market products at this level if the producing country hasn't bought into it itself.

 

[FoXtroT]

Thanks, great post.

My understand of most military and space deals is that they are very political and at high levels between between the countries involved. It is very difficult (almost impossible) to market products at this level if the producing country hasn't bought into it itself.

Indeed, very very political. For any big ticket item you almost always need the government to lobby on your behalf and sadly ours hasn't been doing that.

 

[Garson007]

The Rooivalk never managed to get any international orders, so it is doubtful that the v2 version would.

They couldn't get orders because of legal issues. Had absolutely nothing to do with the engineering.

 

[aleksandar]

Most important question is: Does SA still have skill set to actually manufacture it?

 

[FoXtroT]

Most important question is: Does SA still have skill set to actually manufacture it?

A lot of the original engineers have moved on but many are still in SA at other companies. However Denel still has very good engineering capability and skill set. You just need to look at their missile business to see that; a lot of world class stuff coming out of there.

 

[The_Assimilator]

None of this addresses the elephant in the room - that the Rooivalk is built out of many different components from many different companies from many different countries. If one of those companies decides to end production of a component needed by the Rooivalk, or refuses to sell one of those components for use in Rooivalk production (which has already happened with the gearbox), then guess what? Anybody who has bought Rooivalks - including SA - is pooch-screwed because they can't get replacement parts.

In contrast, American and Russian helicopters are completely indigenous to their home countries. If you can buy an Apache, you can buy replacement parts for it. If you buy Russian choppers it's even easier because half of the former Warsaw Pact nations (plus probably China) can manufacture replacements.

If Denel was able to secure production licenses for all the components they currently have to import, it would become far easier to recommend the Rooivalk because it would be built from wholly indigenously parts and thus (relatively) immune to shifts in political winds. But an attack helicopter that's cobbled together from bits and bobs from all over? Not a compelling choice for any air force that would like to ensure its birds stay in the sky.

 

[FoXtroT]

None of this addresses the elephant in the room - that the Rooivalk is built out of many different components from many different companies from many different countries. If one of those companies decides to end production of a component needed by the Rooivalk, or refuses to sell one of those components for use in Rooivalk production (which has already happened with the gearbox), then guess what? Anybody who has bought Rooivalks - including SA - is pooch-screwed because they can't get replacement parts.

In contrast, American and Russian helicopters are completely indigenous to their home countries. If you can buy an Apache, you can buy replacement parts for it. If you buy Russian choppers it's even easier because half of the former Warsaw Pact nations (plus probably China) can manufacture replacements.

If Denel was able to secure production licenses for all the components they currently have to import, it would become far easier to recommend the Rooivalk because it would be built from wholly indigenously parts and thus (relatively) immune to shifts in political winds. But an attack helicopter that's cobbled together from bits and bobs from all over? Not a compelling choice for any air force that would like to ensure its birds stay in the sky.

Most of its components are made in SA. Its only really its drive-train that is produced overseas and by a reputable company (Airbus Military) that we have a good working relationship with. Its not exactly unheard of for one countries aircraft to use another's engine or components. You just have to be careful who you choose. For example you wouldn't ask the Americans because then you would have to get their approval every time you try sell it, however the French are far more willing to sell to everyone and anyone.

South Africa's higher-end defence companies have consolidated a fair amount recently whereas before we had a whole host of companies specializing in certain things, the ones that were struggling have been bought out by bigger companies with a broader range of products which are able to support parts of the business that aren't doing so well, ala Denel and Paramount.

 

[falcon786]

Stop being so petulant and blind because those reasons are a very real reason why the Rooivalk never received orders. In any case let me break it down for everyone since I have always followed and researched these things.....................................This is of course subject to the Defence Review being approved and appropriate funding allocated.

Nice perspective there from somebody who clearly takes active interest in these things.