Did my lease Expire?

R

ryken

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Need some advice dealing with my landlord from HELL.
In short, lease expired 30/09 and end August landlord offered to extend with rental increase. I replied that I'd like to stay for another year, but would he consider no increase (Im already paying rent 2k above market value and 2 identical units in the same estate have been vacant for months). Landlord agreed to which I replied with thanks and that is be happy to sign on - please send me the addendum when it's ready. No response received and I followed up once - still no response.

Knowing this guy and the stunts he's tried to pull before I knew what this meant - he did not want to commit to a long term agreement IN CASE the market picks up again and he can either kick me out and go back to charging an exorbitant amount for rent. (Cape Town!)

Fed up and favourable interest rates we decided to buy a place and gave 30 days notice as per the month - to month requirement. LL now claims I'm in breach and will most likely keep my deposit with penalty etc because my email was legally binding.

I genuinely believed that no contract was finalised as the initial lease states "if both parties agree to extend for another fixed term they must effect an addendum or new lease agreement"

Am I wrong? Did I actually enter into an agreement?
 
I think if you have sufficient proof that you requested a new lease then he cant hold you to it.

From what I read on legal talk, if no new lease is signed or terminated then your current (expired) lease is on month to month. He cant legally keep your deposit if you give 20 working days notice.

You can refer him to the CPA if he wants to be difficult.

If you want to be spiteful. Just stay there for couple more months and dont pay rent at all. He cannot evict you since squatters have more rights than landlords. This is bad advice but it will piss him off
 
ryken said:
Need some advice dealing with my landlord from HELL.
In short, lease expired 30/09 and end August landlord offered to extend with rental increase. I replied that I'd like to stay for another year, but would he consider no increase (Im already paying rent 2k above market value and 2 identical units in the same estate have been vacant for months). Landlord agreed to which I replied with thanks and that is be happy to sign on - please send me the addendum when it's ready. No response received and I followed up once - still no response.

Knowing this guy and the stunts he's tried to pull before I knew what this meant - he did not want to commit to a long term agreement IN CASE the market picks up again and he can either kick me out and go back to charging an exorbitant amount for rent. (Cape Town!)

Fed up and favourable interest rates we decided to buy a place and gave 30 days notice as per the month - to month requirement. LL now claims I'm in breach and will most likely keep my deposit with penalty etc because my email was legally binding.

I genuinely believed that no contract was finalised as the initial lease states "if both parties agree to extend for another fixed term they must effect an addendum or new lease agreement"

Am I wrong? Did I actually enter into an agreement?
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Why exactly do you want to stay if there are "...2 identical units in the same estate" that are vacant and you are ostensibly "...already paying rent 2k above market value"?

Why didn't you move to the units that were 2k lower and tell him to fuggoff long time ago?
 
IMHO, your proposal and his acceptance could be seen as an agreement and would constitute an addendum and should be contractually binding whether it was formalised or not. What you think the reasons for a formalised document not being provided is irrelevant and does not negate the commitment. If it were me, invoke the CPA and cancel according to the notice period and negotiate the reasonable penalty provided for in the act.
 
Midnights_Ghost said:
I think if you have sufficient proof that you requested a new lease then he cant hold you to it.

From what I read on legal talk, if no new lease is signed or terminated then your current (expired) lease is on month to month. He cant legally keep your deposit if you give 20 working days notice.

You can refer him to the CPA if he wants to be difficult.

If you want to be spiteful. Just stay there for couple more months and dont pay rent at all. He cannot evict you since squatters have more rights than landlords. This is bad advice but it will piss him off
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Ha ha, hell no, I don't have an appetite for that kind of drama!
 
RonSwanson said:
Why exactly do you want to stay if there are "...2 identical units in the same estate" that are vacant and you are ostensibly "...already paying rent 2k above market value"?

Why didn't you move to the units that were 2k lower and tell him to fuggoff long time ago?
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Because it's not about saving 2k. Rental prices started dropping after I entered into this agreement so there wasn't much I could do about it - until he wanted to increase upon renewal. Plus, It's a big house with a lot of stuff and moving is a schlep
 
quovadis said:
IMHO, your proposal and his acceptance could be seen as an agreement and would constitute an addendum and should be contractually binding whether it was formalised or not. What you think the reasons for a formalised document not being provided is irrelevant and does not negate the commitment. If it were me, invoke the CPA and cancel according to the notice period and negotiate the reasonable penalty provided for in the act.
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Thanks good idea
 
Eric said:
Let him have the deposit. Move on. He accommodated you and you didn't chase the lease. 50/50 culpability IMO.
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Nah, he didn't accomadate me. He knew that if I moved he ran the risk of losing the income and even if he did find a new tenant there is no chance they would pay the same rent.
So, because I didn't follow up with him a third time, I should just give him R32000?
 
ryken said:
Nah, he didn't accomadate me. He knew that if I moved he ran the risk of losing the income and even if he did find a new tenant there is no chance they would pay the same rent.
So, because I didn't follow up with him a third time, I should just give him R32000?
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Are you paying R32000 in rent? Sweet lord baby mama...
 
ryken said:
Because it's not about saving 2k. Rental prices started dropping after I entered into this agreement so there wasn't much I could do about it - until he wanted to increase upon renewal. Plus, It's a big house with a lot of stuff and moving is a schlep
Click to expand...

I still do not understand: If similar units were going for lower, and were available, you could have negotiated a lower rental, what was preventing that?

I also do not understand, you say that it's a big house and moving is a schlep, yet you ended up moving in anycase? It kind of contradicts your argument. I also do not see how he is a "...landlord from HELL."

Long story short, the issue is about whether you had a legal agreement with him or not. My take is yes, you surely do. Even a verbal agreement is binding, and in your case there is an email trail. The fact that you or he didn't renegotiate a new contract means that both of you were comfortable to renew on the old contract terms. If the old contract bound you to 60 days notice for 12 months, then that is what you and he agreed to at the time. It is also what the rental housing tribunal will regard as reasonable. If he suffers loss of rental income due to you not fulfilling your end of the agreement (premature notice) then he is entitled to claim it from you due to breach of contract.

If you do not wish to pay him for his loss, then you have two options: You could offer to assist him in finding a new tenant, so that he does not suffer a loss of income. If you manage to get someone whom he approves, then you are off the hook. The other option is to approach the Rental Housing Tribunal and ask them to make a ruling on the validity of the agreement and your new notice terms. Given that you appear to have plucked them from the air, I don't think that they will agree with you though.
 
Bad landlords think deposit is there money not yours.

Having waited 12 months for the Western Cape rental tribunal to do ANYTHING, I would suggest
A. Stop paying rent immediately
B. Steal anything else up to your deposit amount

Mark my words, you wont get a cent of your deposit back, so make sure he doesnt owe you anything.

Ps - don't forget about all the interest on YOUR money too!!
 
quovadis said:
IMHO, your proposal and his acceptance could be seen as an agreement and would constitute an addendum and should be contractually binding whether it was formalised or not. What you think the reasons for a formalised document not being provided is irrelevant and does not negate the commitment. If it were me, invoke the CPA and cancel according to the notice period and negotiate the reasonable penalty provided for in the act.
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This and only this or you'll be further out of pocket.
 
My dad was an estate agent, back in 2006 -2009 I worked in conveyancing and my sister still works in the industry today. From all our experiences and chats we’ve had around topics like this I can assure you that it’s still a 50/50 chance.
The landlord will argue that you guys had a written agreement in the form of email whereas your argument can be the fact that you asked him to send the document for confirmation. That email falls slightly into your favor, however without that email it’s all in the landlords favor and you wouldn’t have stood a chance.

I would query with the tribunal and a lawyer to see what they think about the situation. I would also argue that I hunted for another place as I was uncertain after the landlord did not send the renewal of you asked a 2nd time. If they are both not giving answers to confidently say that everything is in my favor then I would probably not even waste time as the stress won’t be worthwhile. I’d negotiate a penalty or try and find a tenant as previously suggested.

good luck
 
quovadis said:
So, you’re advocating for a tainted credit record and a possible criminal record. Great advice.
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Yup 100% am. Although unless the landlord is a bank then they should not be able to touch your credit record.

Also its not stealing as they owe you back the deposit. Probably easiest as others have said, DO NOT pay your last months rent, i.e. tell them to take your deposit - we did not do thid and now regret it every day. 60,000 + a year of interest... Still waiting on an incompetent western cape rental tribunal. The law is too slow, so there will be no impact on the tenant either.

Bad landlords steal tenants deposits. Get in there sooner rather than later. You WILL not get a cent of your deposit back, from my experience ina very similar situation. Landlords who dont understand the CPA, will never understand the CPA.
 
richjdavies said:
Yup 100% am. Although unless the landlord is a bank then they should not be able to touch your credit record.

Also its not stealing as they owe you back the deposit. Probably easiest as others have said, DO NOT pay your last months rent, i.e. tell them to take your deposit - we did not do thid and now regret it every day. 60,000 + a year of interest... Still waiting on an incompetent western cape rental tribunal. The law is too slow, so there will be no impact on the tenant either.

Bad landlords steal tenants deposits. Get in there sooner rather than later. You WILL not get a cent of your deposit back, from my experience ina very similar situation. Landlords who dont understand the CPA, will never understand the CPA.
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Lol. You are mistaken. You don't need to be a bank - pretty much most people can if you know the process. Withholding your deposit does not entitle you to help yourself to something of equal value of theirs. You have the same legal avenues as the landlord. Use them.
 
quovadis said:
Use them.
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I have... they don't work.

(read above... waiting for 60k more than 14 months after leaving the place - WC Rental Tribunal has gone to mediation, Landlord dug in his heels... mediation basically said he's wrong, but he wouldn't accept it.
Tribunal has been unable to organise a date since...
 
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