Did Romney Make a False Statement on His Financial Disclosure?

[Fazda]

As in real life, I don't think a person's level of intelligence is necessarily going to correlate with their success or lack thereof.

However, anyone who thinks that Obama doesn't intellectually kick the stuffing out of Bush's vagina has to be drunk...

Excellent!! Copa for Pres!!

 

[Zyzzyva]

Presidential campaigns are an odd thing really. You have people, in some cases with no experience, running to be the leader of a nation. You wouldnt do that in the much smaller game of business. You wouldn't consider giving the job of CEO of a large corporation to a bright 45 something year old academic with no real world business or leadership experiences just because he has a nice smile, a knack for telling you exactly what you want to hear, and a good academic record. As nice as it would seem, you just wouldnt do it because real world businessmen know book smarts means surprisingly little in the real world, because in the real world there are a million details you just never think about when formulating your admirable visions.

Unless you have decades of actual experience, successful running a large business or state, you should be laughed off the stage when declaring your intent to be what is essentially the leader of leaders.

 

[RanzB]

never think about when formulating your admirable visions.

Unless you have decades of actual experience, successful running a large business or state, you should be laughed off the stage when declaring your intent to be what is essentially the leader of leaders.

Romney has plenty of experience as a CEO of a large company. However, do you think he's suited to the job considering that Bain Capital (his company) essentially bought off companies to bankrupt them and pay themselves huge consulting fees and bonuses, thereby putting thousands of people out of work?

 

[Zyzzyva]

Romney has plenty of experience as a CEO of a large company. However, do you think he's suited to the job considering that Bain Capital (his company) essentially bought off companies to bankrupt them and pay themselves huge consulting fees and bonuses, thereby putting thousands of people out of work?

I would have to think there is someone better out there than both of them, but given the choice between no experience Obama and Romney, i would choose Romney any day of the week to run the business of the USA.

To understand this, answer the simple question: Who would General Electric hire, ignoring the fame of each individual?

 

[Techne]

I wasn't talking about comparing him to the average US President, just your comparison that you can't expect his intelligence to be that much better than Bush II. That's nonsense.

There doesn't appear to much to suggest that any of them is super intelligent or even just barely above average (100). I suspect both are between 110 and 125. And based on their actions, Obama isn't much better really.

But I'll let the GOP and Democratic fan boys try to polish their <insert figure of speech> candidates.

Looking around the net - it would apper that Dubya didn't quite make it to 3 figures on the IQ scale - varying between 91 and 98 depending on what you read......

Found this on Obama, however:

Got anything concrete, anything that cannot be confused for "the internet says so? I am sure there are many personalities/fan boys in each camp trying to pep their candidate's intelligence and talk trash about their opponent's.
Subjective opinions are not going to convince anyone that the one is more intelligent than the other.

I presume that Apache and Techne are coming from the same camp that says that it's obvious he's doff because he's black....how wrong can you be?

No, you are just being a race mongerer.

 

[RanzB]

I would have to think there is someone better out there than both of them, but given the choice between no experience Obama and Romney, i would choose Romney any day of the week to run the business of the USA.

To understand this, answer the simple question: Who would General Electric hire, ignoring the fame of each individual?

What difference does that make? You're saying that since Romney's MO is to shut down businesses and export jobs, he's the better candidate? :erm: You have weird ideas for running a country...

 

[RanzB]

There doesn't appear to much to suggest that any of them is super intelligent or even just barely above average (100). I suspect both are between 110 and 125. And based on their actions, Obama isn't much better really.

There does seem like a lot to suggest that. Consider the fact that Bush could barely remember a simple idiom.

 

[Techne]

There does seem like a lot to suggest that. Consider the fact that Bush could barely remember a simple idiom.

Neither of them appear to be any good at remembering simple things. Use google, you'll find some funny things said by both, which just reinforces the idea that neither of them are extraordinarily bright.

 

[Apache]

There does seem like a lot to suggest that. Consider the fact that Bush could barely remember a simple idiom.

or when obama thought that Austrians spoke austrian, what a chump.

 

[Zyzzyva]

What difference does that make? You're saying that since Romney's MO is to shut down businesses and export jobs, he's the better candidate? :erm: You have weird ideas for running a country...

That simplistic characterisation of a long career needing a thorough evaluation is shallow fanboy thinking at its best.

Decades of business experience including the running of a state do inherently make him a stronger candidate than someone who has no real world experience other than academia. Personally i would prefer far better candidates, but this notion that Obama is academic material and thus automatically leadership material is ridiculous. There needs to be a far sterner real world test than that. Business generally don't allow for such a low bar and i don't think national politics should either.

The amount of extremely shallow biased reporting from the media (both sides) is dumbing down the voting population.

 

[RanzB]

That simplistic characterisation of a long career needing a thorough evaluation is shallow fanboy thinking at its best.

Decades of business experience including the running of a state do inherently make him a stronger candidate than someone who has no real world experience other than academia. Personally i would prefer far better candidates, but this notion that Obama is academic material and thus automatically leadership material is ridiculous. There needs to be a far sterner real world test than that. Business generally don't allow for such a low bar and i don't think national politics should either.

The amount of extremely shallow biased reporting from both sides is dumbing down the voting population.

What crap. You just saying that my argument is fan boyish doesn't make it so.

As for your idea of who has more experience, then at the moment you'd favour Obama as Romney has no experience of running a country. Furthermore, no one suggested that academic prowess leads automatically to leadership strength, so stop arguing against things that no one is arguing for.

As for Romney's business experience, if you don't know the history of Bain, I'd suggest you do some reading up.

 

[RanzB]

or when obama thought that Austrians spoke austrian, what a chump.

My point was that Bush spoke like a moron everytime he opened his mouth, I'm not comparing it to someone who has made one of two gaffs.

There is a difference. If you don't see that, nothing I can do.

 

[Fazda]

I see that Apache is now frantically quoting from the RedState news of 2009 - ONE slurred word and there's a feeding frienzy from the Red State buffoons.

 

[Apache]

I see that Apache is now frantically quoting from the RedState news of 2009 - ONE slurred word and there's a feeding frienzy from the Red State buffoons.

One slurred word, yeah he was probably drinking.

 

[Zyzzyva]

Probably a good time to get back to the main topic of this thread.

From factcheck.org

Romney’s Bain Years: New Evidence, Same Conclusion

New reporting cites strong evidence that Mitt Romney wasn’t actively managing Bain Capital while he was running the Olympics, despite what the Obama campaign (and some news reports) would have voters believe.

Dan Primack, a senior editor at Fortune Magazine, reports on previously confidential “offering documents” that Bain circulated to potential investors in June 2000, September 2000 and again in January 2001. And he says that in each of those three documents Romney’s name is conspicuously absent from lists of senior investment managers at Bain.

Dan Primack, July 12: [T]he contemporaneous Bain documents show that Romney was indeed telling the truth about no longer having operational input at Bain…

This has become a key point of contention, because Obama TV ads accuse Romney of shipping U.S. jobs overseas. We reported that the Obama campaign had failed to back up its claims (“Obama’s ‘Outsourcer’ Overreach,” June 29), partly because Romney had left Bain in February 1999 to run the 2002 Winter Olympic and wasn’t actively in charge of the company at the time.

But the Obama campaign objected, claiming that Romney remained a part-time manager even while he was living in Utah and running the Olympics. We responded, finding the campaign’s evidence “weak or non-existent.”

Since then some other reporters have weighed in on Obama’s side. Articles in Mother Jones magazine and the Talking Points Memo website, and most recently a front-page Boston Globe story on July 12, all cite documents filed by Bain with the Securities and Exchange Commission.

The TPM piece noted that in documents from July 2000 and February 2001 Romney listed his “principal occupation” as “Managing Director” of Bain, for example. And the Globe story reported that Bain repeatedly listed him on government filings as the man in charge.

On a media conference call about the Globe story, Stephanie Cutter, Obama’s deputy campaign manager, said the story proves that Romney had “full control” of Bain during this time and “therefore directly responsible” for decisions made at companies in which Bain invested. “Either Mitt Romney, through his own words and his own signature, was misrepresenting his position at Bain to the SEC, which is a felony. Or he was misrepresenting his position at Bain to the American people to avoid responsibility for some of the consequences of his investments,” Cutter said.

But we see little new in any of these SEC filings, and a University of Pennsylvania Law School professor we spoke to sees no basis for the Obama campaign’s claim that Romney committed a felony.

None of the SEC filings show that Romney was anything but a passive, absentee owner during that time, as both Romney and Bain have long said. It should not surprise anyone that Romney retained certain titles while he was working out the final disposition of his ownership, for example. We see nothing to contradict the statement that a Bain spokesman issued in response to the Globe article:

Bain Capital, July 12: Due to the sudden nature of Mr. Romney’s departure, he remained the sole stockholder for a time while formal ownership was being documented and transferred to the group of partners who took over management of the firm in 1999. Accordingly, Mr. Romney was reported in various capacities on SEC filings during this period.

Jill E. Fisch, a professor at the University of Pennsylvania Law School and co-director of the Institute for Law and Economics, said Romney would not have committed a felony by listing himself as managing director — even if he now claims he had no role in running the company after February 1999. There is no legal obligation to describe how active one is in the day-to-day management of the company, she said. And just because he held title of managing director doesn’t necessarily mean that he’s responsible for decisions like layoffs or outsourcing.

“If that really mattered to investors, they might consider that a civil liability, but we wouldn’t be talking about a felony,” she said.

We would reassess our judgment should somebody come up with evidence that Romney took part in specific management decisions or had any active role (not just a title) at Bain after he left to head the Olympics. But nothing we’ve seen directly contradicts Romney’s statements — which he has certified as true under pain of federal prosecution — that he “has not had any active role” with Bain or “been involved in the operations” of Bain since then.

And we wish to note, we’re not alone in this judgement. Others include:

Fortune’s Dan Primack — who covers Wall Street “deals and dealmakers” — addressed the Mother Jones reporting in a July 2 article that came to the same conclusion we do. Primack’s more recent reporting we’ve already noted.
The Washington Post‘s Fact Checker, Glenn Kessler, rebutted the Boston Globe story in a July 12 piece. “Just because you are listed as an owner of shares does not mean you have a managerial role,” Kessler writes. We agree.
Before the Globe story broke, the Columbia Journalism Review’s Brendan Nyhan stated: “[T]he specific cases cited by the Obama campaign largely concern actions taken by those companies during a period in which Romney was not making operational decisions at the firm. Journalists must be clear about this distinction.” After the Globe story, CJR’s Greg Marx wrote “there’s less new in the Globe article than the attention it has drawn suggests.”
ABC News’ Devin Dwyer reported July 12, after the Globe‘s story appeared: “Team Obama does not provide any specific evidence to back up claims that Romney was actively managing Bain between 1999 and 2002.”
Dishonest Campaigns

The Romney campaign cited our work in a recent ad to accuse President Obama of running a “dishonest campaign.” The term “dishonest” is theirs, not ours, however. And we make no judgments about the personal character of either candidate, or their campaigns.

And we’ll just note for the record that FactCheck.org has also found numerous instances in which Romney has also strayed from the facts in accusations against Obama. He also claimed that he created 100,000 jobs at Bain Capital — a claim we found lacked support because it took credit for jobs added by companies long after Romney had left the Bain.

But that’s no excuse for the Obama campaign trying to saddle Romney with responsibility for decisions Bain made while Romney was somewhere else.

Update, July 13: The Post’s Kessler awarded three of his “Pinocchios” to the Obama camp’s claim that SEC filings show Romney might be guilty of a felony.

Kessler notes (among other things) that Romney’s time at the Olympics was the subject of hearings before the Massachusetts Ballot Law Commission in 2002, when Democrats sought and failed to disqualify Romney as a candidate for governor on grounds that he had been living in Utah.

After holding hearings for three days, during which Romney testified, the bipartisan ballot panel unanimously adopted “findings of fact” that said Romney was employed in Massachusetts “until 1999” when he left for Utah.

Ballot Law Commission, June 25, 2002: On or about February 11, 1999, the Respondent [Romney] became an employee of the Salt Lake Organizing Committee for a fixed term of three years. While so employed, the Respondent worked, on average, over 12 hours per day, 6 days per week.

During this time Romney remained on the boards of Staples and another company in which Bain had invested, LifeLike Co., a company that made dolls. As evidence of his continued ties to Massachusetts, the report states that Romney “returned to Massachusetts from Utah to attend meetings at Staples.” But there’s no mention of Romney attending any business meetings at Bain itself or any of Bain’s investment funds.

We note for the record our disagreement with a July 12 Huffington Post report, which cites Romney’s membership on the LifeLike board as evidence that his claim to have had no active involvement with Bain or any Bain entity is “false.” No so, in our judgment.

We think the term “Bain Capital entity” on Romney’s disclosure forms could only refer to Bain’s various investment funds, not to companies in which it invested. And in the three days that Romney sought to document his continued ties to Massachusetts, so he could run for governor, he made no mention of attending any meetings at Bain itself or any of the various Bain partnerships.

LifeLike was one of Bain’s smaller investments, and a failure. A Jan. 9 Wall Street Journal report says that in 1996 Bain had invested $2.1 million in the privately held Colorado firm for a stake of “unknown size,” but sold those shares in late 2001 for $15,000. The company was later liquidated, the Journal reported.

On the broader question of Romney’s involvement with Bain during this time, we concur with Kessler’s conclusion. “The Obama campaign is blowing smoke here,” he says, adding “the weight of evidence suggests that Romney did in fact end active management of Bain in 1999.”

– Brooks Jackson, with Rob Farley and Eugene Kiely

http://factcheck.org/2012/07/romneys-bain-years-new-evidence-same-conclusion/

 

[zippy]

Both candidates are a joke and will be bad for the USA. They desperately need a breakout candidate. Everybody thought Obama was gonna be that guy, but he turned out to be a damp squib. The two party system is broken beyond repair.

The two party system is working as intended. It's supposed to prevent the government from doing anything. It's the system Americans want.

 

[RanzB]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/tjwalke...ut-bain-capital-before-the-issue-can-go-away/

 

[OrbitalDawn]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/tjwalke...ut-bain-capital-before-the-issue-can-go-away/

Ouch, some uncomfortable questions in there. I honestly don't get why he thinks anyone should take his request that this be "off the table" seriously. If you (and your supporters) claim that he's right for the job because of his experience at running companies, then let's have a look at how he ran companies. It seems fair and common sense to me.

 

[RanzB]

http://www.9thousandfeet.com/blog/2012/07/retroactive-retirement/

Additionally, there is an increasing chorus of conservative voices urging Romney to release a whole lot more than just two years’ worth of tax returns. Alabama Governor Robert Bentley, former Mississippi Governor Haley Barbour, the execrable Bill Kristol and a wheelbarrow full of others have all pitched in. George Will too, who now and then says something astute (usually about baseball, but whatever), now nails it;

Mitt Romney has said he has released all that’s necessary for people to understand “something” about my finances. Now “something” is a pregnant word… The costs of not releasing the returns are clear, therefore he must have calculated there are higher costs to releasing them.

Still refuses to release those tax records. Afaik, in 2008 he gave 23 years of tax returns to the McCain camp, who then promptly chose Sarah Palin. Interesting.

 

[RanzB]

@Orbital - exactly. Somehow some people can't see the sense in that, choosing to indulge themselves with fairytales of 'If someone is in business, they're automatically good at it'.