Do you believe renewables are the solution to end SA's blackout woes or do you agree with South Africa’s energy minister Gwede Mantashe that they cannot replace fossil fuels as SA's primary source of energy?
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Do you believe renewables are the solution?
- Thread starter bwana
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Athos
Expert Member
You need to generate base load. Whether it be from fossil fuels or nuclear you cannot power a country without base load.
When the sun isn't shining and the wind isn't blowing you need base load to carry you through.
At the moment the vast majority of our base load is generated by burning fossil fuels. Without a move towards nuclear generation, this won't change.
When the sun isn't shining and the wind isn't blowing you need base load to carry you through.
At the moment the vast majority of our base load is generated by burning fossil fuels. Without a move towards nuclear generation, this won't change.
Pegging
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Cius
Honorary Master
In the short term fossil fuels are essential, and perhaps Nuclear. Not sure I trust the ANC to build a safe Nuclear plant. Long term we need full renewable. Medium term I am hoping we mine the moon for Helium 3 and set up clean fusion reactors to process it into energy. That source should power the world for a few hundred years until we can set up solar farms in space and get it down somehow.
Cius
Honorary Master
There will never be more coal or oil fields. Coal (and oil) formed at a stage where woody plants had developed but not the termites and Fungus that generally breaks wood down. Trees died and just stacked up on earth. Eventually they got covered with earth and compressed into the existing coal seams. That does not happen anymore as life evolved to consume that source of energy.Depends what is meant by renewable.
Fossil
Fossil fuels -- including coal, oil and natural gas -- are drilled or mined before being burned to produce electricity, or refined for use as fuel.www.energy.gov
Plants and animals are still dying...
backstreetboy
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Yes with BESS, Hydro, Molten salt and soon even solar panels that can generate electricity 24/7 and with Africa having sunshine 320 days a year going with renewables is a no brainer.
NarrowBandFtw
Honorary Master
Other: the tech does not matter until you hang the vile corrupt pieces of excrement that messed it all up to begin with
Turns out the renewables revolution going on in Europe for the past ~15 years has actually been a story about gas.
I remember this headline from a couple years ago:
www.bbc.com
Seems nobody bothered to fact-check the BBC because this is not new:
www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk
As far as I understand, CCGT means "closed cycle gas turbine" and gas is a fossil fuel.
It's a pity some people have to suffer as the situation gets serious but hopefully in the long run it'll be a win for a more reasonable interpretation of what renewables do.
They don't provide cheap heat on a cold winter's evening, that's for damn sure.
As for batteries, my f*k they're expensive. The result is they get massively under-spec'd so even the "dispatchable" renewables projects can barely make it past sunset even when brand new.
I remember this headline from a couple years ago:
Britain goes coal free as renewables edge out fossil fuels
On Wednesday, Britain will mark two months without burning any coal to generate power.
www.bbc.com
Seems nobody bothered to fact-check the BBC because this is not new:
G. B. National Grid status
www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk
As far as I understand, CCGT means "closed cycle gas turbine" and gas is a fossil fuel.
It's a pity some people have to suffer as the situation gets serious but hopefully in the long run it'll be a win for a more reasonable interpretation of what renewables do.
They don't provide cheap heat on a cold winter's evening, that's for damn sure.
As for batteries, my f*k they're expensive. The result is they get massively under-spec'd so even the "dispatchable" renewables projects can barely make it past sunset even when brand new.
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Base load shmaze load. Baseload is a red herring. The problem was always to match supply with demand. Baseload just meant that the supply side was slightly easier to manage but we always had to match supply and demand. With renewables the supply side has become slightly more complex, but the problem statement is the same. It is an engineering problem, and we have a lot of smart people on this planet. A couple of things we need to do:
1) Variable power pricing based on supply ...
2) ... which drives implementation of a smart grid.
3) ... smart grid allows us to shift demand ... there is a *lot* of demand we can shift around.
4) ... variable pricing will also drive energy storage by consumers ...
5) ... and drive efficiency (e.g. funny in South Africa consumers rarely look at energy efficiency of appliances...)
6) Massive decentralisation of the grid. Bigger is not always better...
The biggest problem is that we suffer the tragedy of the commons - people are not paying the full price of the impact of fossil fuels there it looks cheaper than what it actually is.
Vorastra
Honorary Master
Like how Germany recently included natural gas under its green regime to get around their own laws.Turns out the renewables revolution going on in Europe for the past ~15 years has actually been a story about gas.
I remember this headline from a couple years ago:
Britain goes coal free as renewables edge out fossil fuels
On Wednesday, Britain will mark two months without burning any coal to generate power.
Seems nobody bothered to fact-check the BBC because this is not new:
View attachment 1375295
G. B. National Grid status
As far as I understand, CCGT means "closed cycle gas turbine" and gas is a fossil fuel.
It's a pity some people have to suffer as the situation gets serious but hopefully in the long run it'll be a win for a more reasonable interpretation of what renewables do.
They don't provide cheap heat on a cold winter's evening, that's for damn sure.
As for batteries, my f*k they're expensive. The result is they get massively under-spec'd so even the "dispatchable" renewables projects can barely make it past sunset, and that's when they're new.
Jet-Fighter7700
Honorary Master
absolutely, Fossil fuels will run out, only question is when, (back to Camels for you Dubai)
and will Humanity simply cease to exist without limitless supply of Cheap Plastic and Oil/Coal.
no, we have to adapt or Die,
Energy has to come from somewhere, even if we design things to be more efficient to make the most of the limited amount of power they produce.
Cars that are lighter and more aerodynamic, Light-Bulbs that use less energy, water heaters powered by the Sun,
and other things, like Battery storage, that allows us to keep some energy stored up for emergencies
Many ways, just people need to adapt,
and will Humanity simply cease to exist without limitless supply of Cheap Plastic and Oil/Coal.
no, we have to adapt or Die,
Energy has to come from somewhere, even if we design things to be more efficient to make the most of the limited amount of power they produce.
Cars that are lighter and more aerodynamic, Light-Bulbs that use less energy, water heaters powered by the Sun,
and other things, like Battery storage, that allows us to keep some energy stored up for emergencies
Many ways, just people need to adapt,
Athos
Expert Member
Ok "base load shmaze load". Let's switch off all our coal-fired units and make our supply side and demand side management super duper efficient and see how that goes. If the country needs a constant 30 GW it needs a constant 30 GW if you are not generating that at any given time I don't care how good your supply side or demand side management is, you won't have enough power. You need to generate base load. You cannot generate base load with Solar or Wind. You do the math.
Athos
Expert Member
It's not enough. These solutions are not big enough yet to generate what the country needs. These technologies still have a long way to go.
*edit: The largest BESS in the world according to Google is 400 MW. That isn't even one coal-fired unit at power stations built in the 80s. Even with load losses, a Unit runs at more than 400 MW. There are 15 coal-fired power stations with 6 Units each. Medupi and Kusile units are rated at over 800 MW per Unit. Some of the smaller units are 150 ish MW but it would take a very long time to replace that base load generation.
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It's the "smart grid" that's the red herring imo.
This hand-wavy stuff comes down to "renewables require sacrifice", and the problem is the consumer just won't accept that.
Progress in every other domain means we get more stuff for less money. Why are we going backwards on energy?
Besides the unpriced negative externalities of fossil fuels which I think does have some merit, the only explanation is we've been absolutely stupid about pushing ahead with nuclear.
It's soon going to be cheaper and easier to go to the moon than to build a nuclear power station. How ridiculous would that look to someone from the 1960s?
rh1
Honorary Master
On an individual family level, yes it is. My small set up, means I am basically grid free except for the geyser. And their are alternatives for that including upsizing my set up.
On a transport system, in Africa no and not for the foreseeable future.
On a society level, no, renewables - sun - only works during the day. Wind, cannot be reliably depended on for continous production. Hydro _electric requires us to change rivers for big scale electrification.
So leaves us with Fossil or Nuclear.
On a transport system, in Africa no and not for the foreseeable future.
On a society level, no, renewables - sun - only works during the day. Wind, cannot be reliably depended on for continous production. Hydro _electric requires us to change rivers for big scale electrification.
So leaves us with Fossil or Nuclear.
Pak Fa Fui
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Is nuclear considered fossil fuels, if not your poll is a flop
Nuclear - too dangerous in this country.
Fossil Fuels - will not kill the planet, just make humanity more prone to suffering, and our contribution is tiny.
Natural Gas - we have it, must use it.
Renewables - plenty of good-sunshine and constant wind areas, it must start to make a meaningful contribution.
Fossil Fuels - will not kill the planet, just make humanity more prone to suffering, and our contribution is tiny.
Natural Gas - we have it, must use it.
Renewables - plenty of good-sunshine and constant wind areas, it must start to make a meaningful contribution.
Recent Koeberg events have again made it clear that, despite independent control, it gets badly messed up and so isn't a safe option here.
So, not an issue to consider.
Either way, "Other" covers it...
Pak Fa Fui
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With that mindset, let’s not build roads, they will just end up with potholes