Do you believe renewables are the solution?

[Pak Fa Fui]

You will not be able to use that argument to win nuclear support in this country. Strange you can't see that.

/done

The support is in the experience and is and has been harnessed if you haven’t noticed. Strange you can’t see that

 

[Brian_G]

Renewables the idea is punted as the great saviour but how? It ends up costing consumers more, most places that deployed it have higher carbon footprints.
For Africa and third world countries we need to get our power sorted out first, rolling out renewables will not solve those issues. Maybe in a few years when reliable storage comes available, but currently there just isn't enough of that.

The idea seems to be that the more parties you get on-board the lower the costs and higher the demand for technical advancement wil be.
Probably will work, tech somehow does usually find a way forward with enough pressure.
But yes, not really in Africa yet. Although we do have plenty of wind in some areas.

 

[Lupus]

The idea seems to be that the more parties you get on-board the lower the costs and higher the demand for technical advancement wil be.
Probably will work, tech somehow does usually find a way forward with enough pressure.
But yes, not really in Africa yet. Although we do have plenty of wind in some areas.

We've been trying since the 60s, I mean we've come along way and pricing has gone down significantly. One of the biggest hurdles was probably oil/coal companies they are notorious for keeping things like alternate energy as low as possible.

 

[Brian_G]

We've been trying since the 60s, I mean we've come along way and pricing has gone down significantly. One of the biggest hurdles was probably oil/coal companies they are notorious for keeping things like alternate energy as low as possible.

Sure, though hopefully enough has changed. I'm no greenie but still know we need to do better than we had been.

There are some countries in Europe already doing really well with renewables, seen some doccies but can't recall which ones. Netherlands / Scandinavia areas I think.

 

[Spizz]

Possibly cause that nuclear plants 100MW would be there all the time, so instead of 400MWh you're getting 2400MWh a day, that would be a big factor.

Sure, but nuclear is not going to happen in South Africa. Even if it did it the costs would be prohibitive and it would take decades to implement. If the Finns 1.6GW reactor that opened last month went 12 years and 8 BILLION Euros over budget, realistically, what chance do we stand with the same idiots who fscked up Medupi and Kusile?

In the meantime, the 320MWh BESS storage planned at the 80MW Skaapvlei wind farm on the West Coast will be up and running and powering 10s of thousands of households within 2 years, and the 1GWh+ PV/BESS facility at Kenhardt in the NC has started. That'll be up and running in 18 months if it goes to plan.

Although it may not be the solution to everything, it is better than doing nothing and long may it continue.

 

[Brian_G]

The support is in the experience and is and has been harnessed if you haven’t noticed. Strange you can’t see that

Let me put it this way - wish I could agree with you further as it does hold promise. But even if somehow safe enough despite warning signs, the powers that shouldn't be take forever to build anything complex with endless delays, as we all know. And that's if the funds aren't slowly stolen.
Not a good bet, really not.

What's your objection to renewables that can assist, and natural gas?
Don't you think we can survive another 5 to 10 years of coal use in the meantime?
(Optimistic in this country but have to start somewhere.)

 

[Tomtomtom]

I'm not sure what your point is. How is harnessing say, 400MWh from a 100MW PV or wind farm useless?

My point is the general public (and their representatives) don't know the difference between power and energy and so are easily hoodwinked into thinking renewables are cost-effective.

 

[Lupus]

Sure, but nuclear is not going to happen in South Africa. Even if it did it the costs would be prohibitive and it would take decades to implement. If the Finns 1.6GW reactor that opened last month went 12 years and 8 BILLION Euros over budget, realistically, what chance do we stand with the same idiots who fscked up Medupi and Kusile?

In the meantime, the 320MWh BESS storage planned at the 80MW Skaapvlei wind farm on the West Coast will be up and running and powering 10s of thousands of households within 2 years, and the 1GWh+ PV/BESS facility at Kenhardt in the NC has started. That'll be up and running in 18 months if it goes to plan.

Although it may not be the solution to everything, it is better than doing nothing and long may it continue.

Well they are at the final stages, they did start looking at it 2 years ago, so considering South Africa timelines, in 5 years time possibly? Also 80MW that would be gone in an hour for a suburb, so unless it's for maybe smoothing out the grid or to provide a cold startup 80MW isn't going to do what at night?
We need GW of batteries not MW.

 

[Lupus]

Sure, though hopefully enough has changed. I'm no greenie but still know we need to do better than we had been.

There are some countries in Europe already doing really well with renewables, seen some doccies but can't recall which ones. Netherlands / Scandinavia areas I think.

Yup and the biggest green source of energy we've known about it for 70+ years, but a lot of greenies and big oil sabotaged it. Even ex greenies who loved solar are now realising wait

 

[Tomtomtom]

Sure, but nuclear is not going to happen in South Africa. Even if it did it the costs would be prohibitive and it would take decades to implement. If the Finns 1.6GW reactor that opened last month went 12 years and 8 BILLION Euros over budget, realistically, what chance do we stand with the same idiots who fscked up Medupi and Kusile?

I'm not advocating for nuclear in SA today, but more generally it has to be the way forward.

The fact we pay absurdly high prices for it is a problem to be solved in itself -- maybe the main problem. Unlike the cost of oil or batteries it seems to be largely disconnected from physical reality.

We need a SpaceX for fission, or something.

In the meantime, the 320MWh BESS storage planned at the 80MW Skaapvlei wind farm on the West Coast will be up and running and powering 10s of thousands of households within 2 years, and the 1GWh+ PV/BESS facility at Kenhardt in the NC has started. That'll be up and running in 18 months if it goes to plan.

Although it may not be the solution to everything, it is better than doing nothing and long may it continue.

I'm not so sure there's a glorious future for huge BESS installations. The hype around the environmental/lifecycle cost of batteries is only just getting started and they're still a rounding error. Couple decades from now they'll probably be making today's oil industry look clean by comparison.

OTOH electric vehicles as distributed storage is interesting because it's a "free" side-effect.

 

[Lupus]

Let me put it this way - wish I could agree with you further as it does hold promise. But even if somehow safe enough despite warning signs, the powers that shouldn't be take forever to build anything complex with endless delays, as we all know. And that's if the funds aren't slowly stolen.
Not a good bet, really not.

What's your objection to renewables that can assist, and natural gas?
Don't you think we can survive another 5 to 10 years of coal use in the meantime?
(Optimistic in this country but have to start somewhere.)

It's going to end up costing us more money, but than again we're relying on Eskom so eh. Though if we use CCTGs it would be more efficient than the OCTGs, but than it's still not cheap and you're still burning fuel. Natural gas is still leaving a carbon footprint.
Sadly in SA we will probably never get another nuclear plant.

 

[Lupus]

I'm not advocating for nuclear in SA today, but more generally it has to be the way forward.

The fact we pay absurdly high prices for it is a problem to be solved in itself -- maybe the main problem. Unlike the cost of oil or batteries it seems to be largely disconnected from physical reality.

We need a SpaceX for fission, or something.



I'm not so sure there's a glorious future for huge BESS installations. The hype around the environmental/lifecycle cost of batteries is only just getting started and they're still a rounding error. Couple decades from now they'll probably be making today's oil industry look clean by comparison.

OTOH electric vehicles as distributed storage is interesting because it's a "free" side-effect.

Also as big as the BESS is, it would give an hour of power for a decently sized suburb, so what they get 1 hour of shedding instead of 2.

 

[Pak Fa Fui]

Let me put it this way - wish I could agree with you further as it does hold promise. But even if somehow safe enough despite warning signs, the powers that shouldn't be take forever to build anything complex with endless delays, as we all know. And that's if the funds aren't slowly stolen.
Not a good bet, really not.

What's your objection to renewables that can assist, and natural gas?
Don't you think we can survive another 5 to 10 years of coal use in the meantime?
(Optimistic in this country but have to start somewhere.)

You seem to be the authority on incompetence with no realisation of the process or end product
Its not a mud hut being built in your back yard
Nuclear facilities are always state of the art, every one better than the next and under intense scrutiny by various global governing and regulatory bodies

 

[Brian_G]

Yup and the biggest green source of energy we've known about it for 70+ years, but a lot of greenies and big oil sabotaged it. Even ex greenies who loved solar are now realising wait

I'm not anti-nuclear, just anti it in SA.

It's going to end up costing us more money

IMO most worthwhile things do.

Sadly in SA we will probably never get another nuclear plant.

Crossed my mind, though we shouldn't forget the Chinese effort a few years back which was the first scare.

 

[Brian_G]

You seem to be the authority on incompetence with no realisation of the process or end product
Its not a mud hut being built in your back yard
Nuclear facilities are always state of the art, every one better than the next and under intense scrutiny by various global governing and regulatory bodies

Nothing personal, but you seem to have no idea of the realities in this country.. anc does whatever it wants.

 

[Pak Fa Fui]

Nothing personal, but you seem to have no idea of the realities in this country.. anc does whatever it wants.

So they going to blow us up and turn SA into a nuclear waste dump

 

[grok]

Other: Nuclear but keep the ANC away like what they dismantled the NP's nukes for..

 

[Tomtomtom]

Also as big as the BESS is, it would give an hour of power for a decently sized suburb, so what they get 1 hour of shedding instead of 2.

Yes, I shouldn't have called it huge. Huge for a cellphone battery.

320 MWh is one unit of Medupi running for half an hour. It might make the wind farm's output slightly less useless, but a 2% improvement in Medupi's output would generate the same power.

 

[Brian_G]

Other: Nuclear but keep the ANC away like what they dismantled the NP's nukes for..

Nice timing, thank you..

 

[Lupus]

I was thinking about it, the real way to start thinking about power is micro grids. Like what actually was happening back when electricity first came out.
Each province, or area within a province maintains their own grids via various means of power. be it wind, solar, batteries, hydro, coal, nuclear, hamsters on wheels whatever.
But this would of course shoot Eskom in the foot, as each province running their own power would negate a monopoly.