Do you earn less than a Silicon Valley intern

[cguy]

Interesting article that has created a lot of discussion at work - a bit of a gold rush right now.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-04-27/do-you-earn-less-than-a-silicon-valley-intern

Also, inB4: yes, CoL is high, but not that high.

 

[member2204]

Vodacom 2016 graduates straight out of varsity start off with R300k.

 

[cr@zydude]

Vodacom 2016 graduates straight out of varsity start off with R300k.

What the hell kind of graduates make that?

 

[[)roi(]]

These type comparisons are pretty much BS as you're not considering the situational circumstance.
For example: rentals in Silicon Valley are some of the highest.

As of February 2016, average apartment rent within 10 miles of San Francisco, CA is $3770. One bedroom apartments in San Francisco rent for $3096 a month on average and two bedroom apartment rents average $4126.
Average Rent In San Francisco, San Francisco Rent Trends ...
https://www.rentjungle.com/average-rent-in-san-francisco-rent-trends/

Meaning a large portion of the salary is simply to offset living cost, then consider reasonable rent, travel time/distance/cost, ...

 

[member2204]

What the hell kind of graduates make that?

The ones I know of have been deployed to do application admin, junior BAs and PMs.

 

[cguy]

These type comparisons are pretty much BS as you're not considering the situational circumstance.
For example: rentals in Silicon Valley are some of the highest.
Meaning a large portion of the salary is simply to offset living cost, then consider reasonable rent, travel time/distance/cost, ...

Actually, almost all of those have housing covered as well (or at least partially), and as already stated, those salaries can easily cover the remaining costs.

 

[[)roi(]]

Actually, almost all of those have housing covered as well (or at least partially), and as already stated, those salaries can easily cover the remaining costs.

Nope I think you're wrong. I keep in touch with devs at Apple, Google, Facebook, Twitter, Venmo, ... All based in the Silicon valley area, and none of these have housing separated in the package, same as SA.
The huge costs for accomodation is a constant gripe, plus I haven't heard of many exceptions being made for interns; most of which are just to happy to have landed a job in SV.

 

[cguy]

Nope I think you're wrong. I keep in touch with devs at Apple, Google, Facebook, Twitter, Venmo, ... All based in the Silicon valley area, and none of these have housing separated in the package, same as SA.
The huge costs for accomodation is a constant gripe, plus I haven't heard of many exceptions being made for interns; most of which are just to happy to have landed a job in SV.

Read the article, it lists the typical size of stipends given - so, yes, many of them do (FYI, since corporate housing can be tax deducted, while paying it out as salary would result in having to "gross up" for the intern's tax deduction). Having worked there, I also know it to be true in at least a few of the large companies I know of (the one I worked at included).

 

[[)roi(]]

Read the article, it lists the typical size of stipends given - so, yes, many of them do (FYI, since corporate housing can be tax deducted, while paying it out as salary would result in having to "gross up" for the intern's tax deduction). Having worked there, I also know it to be true in at least a few of the large companies I know of (the one I worked at included).

I did, and you're not the only one who used to work there, explains why I keep in touch with people I met.
IMO most companies tend to keep to a salary covers all, however you do find a few companies as the articles states that do provide but I don't see how that's pertinent to the comparison; we're still not comparing apples vs apples. I would happily earn a SV salary in Cape Town, but that ain't gonna happen.

http://www.businessinsider.com/silicon-valley-unaffordable-even-for-engineers-2015-5

Given the median sale price, however, you'll need to make about $212,800 a year to afford a mortgage on a Silicon Valley home.

i.e. most devs in SV can't afford to make SV a permanent home; they go there for the opportunity, try to live on the lowest cost and in the long run look for opportunities outside of SV; not everyone makes it into a high paying senior management job or is part of an attractive share scheme.

 

[cguy]

I did, and you're not the only one who used to work there, explains why I keep in touch with people I met.
IMO most companies tend to keep to a salary covers all, however you do find a few companies as the articles states that do provide but I don't see how that's pertinent to the comparison; we're still not comparing apples vs apples. I would happily earn a SV salary in Cape Town, but that ain't gonna happen.

http://www.businessinsider.com/silicon-valley-unaffordable-even-for-engineers-2015-5
i.e. most devs in SV can't afford to make SV a permanent home; they go there for the opportunity, try to live on the lowest cost and in the long run look for opportunities outside of SV; not everyone makes it into a high paying senior management job or is part of an attractive share scheme.

The comparison being made is that you can easily live and save a significant amount of money as in intern in a top company in SV vs other-companies/elsewhere. I'm not sure where you think all the stipend and salary goes. For some reason you throw out an income requirement for purchasing a median home - interns don't have to buy "the median" home (or any home at all), and full time employees at these companies typically earn a lot more than $218k (given a list including Facebook, Google, etc. with Tesla as the lowest, it should be obvious that we're not talking about "most devs"), and even then they don't have to buy something at the price of the median home or greater (in fact, 50% of people don't ). Furthermore, even if all one can afford is a $1m median home, it's still a $1m home.

 

[cr@zydude]

The ones I know of have been deployed to do application admin, junior BAs and PMs.

For R300k per year. I wish I worked for Vodacom.

 

[[)roi(]]

The comparison being made is that you can easily live and save a significant amount of money as in intern in a top company in SV vs other-companies/elsewhere. I'm not sure where you think all the stipend and salary goes. For some reason you throw out an income requirement for purchasing a median home - interns don't have to buy "the median" home (or any home at all), and full time employees at these companies typically earn a lot more than $218k (given a list including Facebook, Google, etc. with Tesla as the lowest, it should be obvious that we're not talking about "most devs"), and even then they don't have to buy something at the price of the median home or greater (in fact, 50% of people don't ). Furthermore, even if all one can afford is a $1m median home, it's still a $1m home.

Wrong I suggest you check the article I posted or look at job adverts to get median salary in SV, not as high as you imply.

Anyway back to your title "do you earn less..." -- it's still BS to compare SV salary against SA without considering the cost of living, otherwise what's your point?

 

[freddster]

For R300k per year. I wish I worked for Vodacom.

You're most likely just going to be a number.

 

[cguy]

Wrong I suggest you check the article I posted or look at job adverts to get median salary in SV, not as high as you imply.

Anyway back to your title "do you earn less..." -- it's still BS to compare SV salary against SA without considering the cost of living, otherwise what's your point?

As already stated, the median salary of SV is irrelevant - we're talking about the companies listed, which have a much higher median salary. Unless you think these companies are all that comprise SV???

I don't see how even a CoL normalized comparison doesn't show a blindingly obvious difference between an SA employee and an intern at one of those companies.

 

[[)roi(]]

As already stated, the median salary of SV is irrelevant - we're talking about the companies listed, which have a much higher median salary. Unless you think these companies are all that comprise SV???

I don't see how even a CoL normalized comparison doesn't show a blindingly obvious difference between an SA employee and an intern at one of those companies.

As I said I find these comparisons BS; for example the chances of a good developer owning a decent home in SA is far better than one in SV, but hey if comparing BS $ values floats your boat, sure then I agree SV pays higher salaries, but don't forget it also has far higher requirements i.e. the average intern in SA wouldn't even qualify.

 

[cguy]

As I said I find these comparisons BS; for example the chances of a good developer owning a decent home in SA is far better than one in SV, but hey if comparing BS $ values floats your boat, sure then I agree SV pays higher salaries, but don't forget it also has far higher requirements i.e. the average intern in SA wouldn't even qualify.

The point of the article isn't that people surprisingly earn tons of money in SV for no apparent reason, and the point isn't to compare it to your local income (I'm not asking that question in my thread title, it's just the name of the article, which was being rhetorical anyway). You can argue that it isn't all that much because of CoL and such, but the reality is that a careful intern will leave his/her three month internships $10-20k wealthier than when they arrived, which is nothing to sniff at, and is far more than just covering expenses. The article is highlighting that competition for talent is growing, and companies are increasing salaries, stipends and other benefit to court the best talent. This supports the related trend of significantly stronger offers currently being made to graduates.

 

[FarligOpptreden]

The point of the article isn't that people surprisingly earn tons of money in SV for no apparent reason, and the point isn't to compare it to your local income (I'm not asking that question in my thread title, it's just the name of the article, which was being rhetorical anyway). You can argue that it isn't all that much because of CoL and such, but the reality is that a careful intern will leave his/her three month internships $10-20k wealthier than when they arrived, which is nothing to sniff at, and is far more than just covering expenses. The article is highlighting that competition for talent is growing, and companies are increasing salaries, stipends and other benefit to court the best talent. This supports the related trend of significantly stronger offers currently being made to graduates.

Out of interest, what would a seasoned developer with at least decade's worth of experience be earning in the SV area? I remember reading your experiences from leaving SA years ago, but what is the current scenario there?

 

[cguy]

Nope I think you're wrong. I keep in touch with devs at Apple, Google, Facebook, Twitter, Venmo, ... All based in the Silicon valley area, and none of these have housing separated in the package, same as SA.
The huge costs for accomodation is a constant gripe, plus I haven't heard of many exceptions being made for interns; most of which are just to happy to have landed a job in SV.

Apple stipend discussion: https://www.quora.com/What-perks-do-interns-at-Apple-get
Google stipend discussion: https://www.quora.com/Internships-Should-I-take-Googles-Housing-Stipend-or-Corporate-Housing
Facebook stipend discussion: https://www.quora.com/How-do-most-Facebook-summer-interns-find-housing-what-kinds-of-housing-do-they-normally-live-in
Twitter stipend info: https://about.twitter.com/company/students

 

[Nerfherder]

Don't worry about what happens in Silicon valley and Vodacom... worry about what is happening in India.

My Boss was talking about hiring senior DBA's over there for $20 000 a year !
Similar skills cost about $20 000 a month over here....

We all need to watch out or we will be heavily undercut.

 

[cguy]

Out of interest, what would a seasoned developer with at least decade's worth of experience be earning in the SV area? I remember reading your experiences from leaving SA years ago, but what is the current scenario there?

It really depends on which companies and how well you do of course. At the "hot" companies listed here, the average would be around $250k/year all inclusive (base, bonus, purchase plan, stocks, etc.). If you do really well (Staff Engineer, Principal Engineer, etc. level), up to $500k/year all inclusive. This still isn't the ceiling, but you're looking at 20+ years experience and a long list of achievements for Distinguished Engineer, Fellow, etc. level, which can be $1m+/year - these are literally the best of the best though.