Does the World Actually NEED another "Great Depression"?

But none of this potential border threat matters if Russia and China continue in their current stasis. So while it's a valid point, it is quite meaningless in preventing either Russia or China from economic growth until they actually break their truce and formally enter into conflict. Which may never happen. So in actuality it doesn't amount to much more than crystal ball gazing.

America is flanked by Canada and Latin America. What if those two superpowers decided to team up and invade the US? They only have a single border to cross. Isn't the US living in constant fear of attack by its closest neighbours? But of course it isn't going to happen, it's pure speculation.
 
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But none of this potential border threat matters if Russia and China continue in their current stasis. So while it's a valid point, it is quite meaningless in preventing either Russia or China from economic growth until they actually break their truce and formally enter into conflict. Which may never happen. So in actuality it doesn't amount to much more than crystal ball gazing.

So how do you gauge the confidence of a 'prediction' materialising.
Would you have suggested that Germany attack Poland back in 1920
if you knew the long history of conflict between the two countries?
 
Irrelevant. Don't go OFF TOPIC.
Since when are you a moderator?

China, Russia, Georgia are off topic ("does the world need another great depression").

The US used carpet bombing with stealth planes in Iraq to destroy (as yet undiscovered) weapons of mass destruction. Instead, they destroyed a working economy and thousands of civilians.
 
Since when are you a moderator?

China, Russia, Georgia are off topic ("does the world need another great depression").

The US used carpet bombing with stealth planes in Iraq to destroy (as yet undiscovered) weapons of mass destruction. Instead, they destroyed a working economy and thousands of civilians.

I'm not a moderator but we're not discussing Iraq here.
We're currently discussing reasons why US is in a safer region
of the world than to say Iraq or China or Russia.

I am not supporting any action of the US in Iraq btw.
 
So how do you gauge the confidence of a 'prediction' materialising.
Would you have suggested that Germany attack Poland back in 1920
if you knew the long history of conflict between the two countries?


How far back into the history of the region do you have to go to find an example of a serious conflict between Russia and China? Why do you consider that there is a history of conflict? Throughout the 20th century they were allies in communism. Today they are fast becoming allies against (perceived) American Imperialism. What benefit would either country gain from attacking the other? The Russian interior is far too formidable for China to risk an invasion, and they supply the commodities that China desperately needs for its own expansion.
 
Irrelevant. Don't go OFF TOPIC.

The current topic is Russia and China not US and Iraq. USA did not give US passports to Iraqis before declaring Iraq a US state and annexing it because of the huge US population there.

Dude this is not your show, and this is a free forum. ANYONE can submit anything anytime. Your argument should suggest a strong direction, dictating it will just ensure people unsubscribe to your thread.
 
How far back into the history of the region do you have to go to find an example of a serious conflict between Russia and China? Why do you consider that there is a history of conflict? Throughout the 20th century they were allies in communism. Today they are fast becoming allies against (perceived) American Imperialism. What benefit would either country gain from attacking the other? The Russian interior is far too formidable for China to risk an invasion, and they supply the commodities that China desperately needs for its own expansion.

They were NOT allies in Communism. A border war broke out between them
and a real war broke out between Russian backed Vietnam and Chinese backed Khmer Rouge. Before that China had to hand over Vladivostok
and surrounding East Siberian territories under threat of war.
Russia fought an active war against China in the Boxer rebellion
too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion

There was a major ideological split between the Maoist China and post Stalinist Soviet Union.

"The Russian interior is far too formidable for China to risk an invasion"

What's Russia's population vs China's again?

That to any sane person is enough history. Coupled with how precarious Russian and Chinese economies
are (especially NOW) and that China needs land for its people while Russia has lots of it and Chinese
are emmigrating into Russia there is potential for trouble.

I accept your views, why do you not want to accept the possibility of mine?

I do know how Russian's think. I am from that part of the world originally too.
 
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Dude this is not your show, and this is a free forum. ANYONE can submit anything anytime. Your argument should suggest a strong direction, dictating it will just ensure people unsubscribe to your thread.

You're welcome to unsubscribe.
 
I'm aware of the ideological differences that existed between Chinese and Russian communism, and of course I'm using the term 'allies' in the loosest of all possible senses.

But what you are describing are little more than the frictional skirmishes that should be expected between two avaricious neighbours. But nevertheless, Russia never invaded China and vice versa, more because of self-preservation and simple pragmatism than anything else. And I doubt they ever will. They have a mutually beneficial relationship and a political - let's say parity of ideology that equates to being allies.
 
I accept your views, why do you not want to accept the possibility of mine?

Of course I accept their possibility, I just think all things considered their likelihood is relatively small. It's more than possible that the US will retain its supereminence, will recover from this crisis and go on to 10 more years of economic headship. Or that China will invade Russia, or any number of possibilities. I'm sure it could happen.

What's Russia's population vs China's again?

That to any sane person is enough history.

No, enough history would be one single example of a successful invasion into the Russian interior. Russia has never needed a vast population to defend itself, it only has had to wait until winter comes.
 
Fine let's agree to disagree.

You say that Russia and China have a similar ideology. How come Britain and France
and France and Germany and Germany and Poland have been through so many
wars then. They all had a similar ideology. We can go back to the periods
between the 1300s till the 1700s and these nations all fought wars,
numerous wars amongst each other. The common issue was - they bordered
each other. Even now, if you go to Europe you'll see that:
French and British hate each other, Germans and French hate each other,
Poles and Germans hate each other, British dislike Germans but
not nearly as much as they dislike the French.

If you read those articles you'll see that
China has always been humiliated by Western Nations (incl Russia).
Russia together with Western European nations and Japan colonised
China. Russia and Eastern Europe also never took China too seriously
in the 60-90s.
China feels it has a lot to prove. Just look at those Olympic Games eh?
The Russian people like the Chinese are very proud but are intolerant
of minorities and influx workers.
I already said everything else so I won't repeat but suffice to say that Central
Asia is one big cauldron which can explode, and China can destabilise very
easily - hence the Communist Party is working hard to prevent it
and keep such a tight grip on their country. Curiously the Western
media doesn't report too much on the in-fighting in the Chinese Politburo.
 
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But the thing is peter, it is of course altogether possible that they could have a war - just as with any competitive countries. The burden of proof however is to demonstrate that war is a predictable outcome, which would hinder their economic expansionism, instead of being just one of any number of potential future forecasts. At the moment nobody is seriously anticipating a war between China and Russia except you, and in your case I suspect that that has something to do with your pro-American biases.
 
But the thing is peter, it is of course altogether possible that they could have a war - just as with any competitive countries. The burden of proof however is to demonstrate that war is a predictable outcome, which would hinder their economic expansionism, instead of being just one of any number of potential future forecasts. At the moment nobody is seriously anticipating a war between China and Russia except you, and in your case I suspect that that has something to do with your pro-American biases.

*sigh*

Let me repeat again what I've been saying. ALL I'm saying is that the US is in the most secure and stable location for a major power. In contrast as explained in the Stratfor article - China has serious problems (disparity between coast and poor hinterland people, growing expectations and materialism of the Chinese people, inefficiences and corruption of
the State and company management, overspending and overlending
of money to inefficient Chinese state enterprises, increasing pro
Chinese labour union decisions by the Chinese state vs foreign investors,
huge amount of dollars which may devalue, ageing population despite
recent relaxation of birth control, it has been around for over two decades
and last but not least reduced imports and spending by China's largest
export market and similar economic problems in Japan and EU).
That is one problem. Another problem lies in that EVERYONE here
in SOUTH AFRICA, assumes that China and Russia are friends.
As mentioned they are not. They have a history of aggression
and while they have had common enemies and have common interests
now they are starting to become MORE and MORE UNEQUAL.
China's economy is growing, Russia's is contracting, Chinese population
is growing, Russia's is contracting. China needs an outlet too,
and there are vast empty spaces of unmanaged land in East Siberia
- incredibly depopulated - with some 5 million Russians living there.
Look at the early 20th century - Russo-Japanese War. A possibility
this time of tension between RUssia and China is possible,
as tension between Russia and USA is pointless and is only about
Kremlin flexing its muscles - USA does not pose a threat to Russia,
who else will Russia have to fear? India? Japan?
No-way. The only country in the region capable of threatening
Russia in economic and possibly military terms is China.
Who should CHina threaten?
1. USA? Why? China buys up US dollars and exports to the US.
US companies invest in China and provide the know how
to the Chinese.
2. Japan? Why? Japan has a navy capable of defence of its
own islands, is working on a space program which may
have military uses and is still friendly with the USA.
Besides China has no Blue Water navy. (Neither has Russia).
3. Who else?

All in all it makes sense that if one looks at history of every region,
eg 19th century Europe - with the British, Russia, Austro-Hungarian
and Prussian empires we eventually saw them enter a war against
each other. Logical thinking would have said this would not
happen after all these countries were of similar thought, ruled
by autocratic kings, but in reality their differences (some
had colonies others wanted them and economic
disaprities) led to a collapse of the 19th century system in
Europe.

Look war between China and Russia isn't on the cards yet.
However the region of Central Asia is rich in POTENTIAL
problems. Breakaway Russian/CIS/ex Soviet republics like Moldova. Kashmir,
India, Pakistan. Iran. China and its seperatist movements,
Sri Lanka and its problems, Myanmar and its problems,
Thailand and its problems. In contrast we have the USA
which is undisturbed by all of this - far, far away where
none of this can touch them. Where they can continue with
their own internal 350 million market and even have trade with
Canada, Mexico and S/Central America as a possibility.

A good example of how this served America in the past was the
fact that no serious war was fought in America since the Civil War.
Unlike Europe, China, Japan and Russia, not to mention
Korea and Vietnam, the USA has not been destroyed numerously
by occupying armies, by invading fleets and aerial bombardments.
The US homeland is safe and has been untouched since the end
of the Civil War.

This is all very simplified but NO OTHER nation, sans Australia
has such good prospects as America.

I am not pro US in this. I am just stating an objective opinion.
 
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Look at the early 20th century - Russo-Japanese War.
What did China have to do with this?
This was a conflict over rival imperialistic ambitions between Russia and Japan, and revolved around Korea and Manchuria.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Japanese_War

A possibility this time of tension between RUssia and China is possible,

ATM, the only thing they seem unable to agree upon is energy prices
RUSSIA AND CHINA: UNITED BY FOREIGN POLICY, DIVIDED BY ENERGY PRICES

http://www.jamestown.org/edm/article.php?article_id=2373090

However the region of Central Asia is rich in POTENTIAL problems. Breakaway Russian/CIS/ex Soviet republics like Moldova. Kashmir,India, Pakistan. Iran. China and its seperatist movements,
Sri Lanka and its problems, Myanmar and its problems,
Thailand and its problems.

Hence the SCO:

The Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO) is an intergovernmental mutual-security organization which was founded in 2001 by the leaders of China, Russia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan.
The SCO is primarily centered around its member nations' Central Asian security-related concerns, often describing the main threats it confronts as being terrorism, separatism and extremism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_Cooperation_Organization

Then we look at China's foreign policies over the last few years:

Closer to home China has made efforts to reduce tensions in Asia; its relations with its Asian neighbors have become stable during the last decades of the twentieth century. It has contributed to stability on the Korean Peninsula, cultivated a more cooperative relationship with members of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN) (Brunei, Myanmar, Indonesia, Laos, Malaysia, Philippines, Singapore, Thailand, Vietnam), and participated in the ASEAN Regional Forum. In 1997, the ASEAN member nations and the People's Republic of China, South Korea and Japan agreed to hold yearly talks to further strengthen regional cooperation, the ASEAN Plus Three meetings. In 2005 the "ASEAN Plus Three" countries together with India, Australia and New Zealand held the inaugural East Asia Summit (EAS). Relations have improved with Vietnam since a border war was fought with one-time close ally Vietnam in 1979. A territorial dispute with its Southeast Asian neighbors over islands in the South China Sea remains unresolved, as does another dispute in the East China Sea with Japan.

China has improved ties with Russia. President Putin and President Jiang, in large part to serve as a counterbalance to the United States, signed a Treaty of Friendship and Cooperation in July 2001.The two also joined with the Central Asian nations of Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, and Uzbekistan to found the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO) in June 2001. The SCO is designed to promote regional stability and cooperate to combat terrorism in the region.

Relations with India have also improved considerably. After years of competition, general distrust between the two (mostly over China's close relationship with Pakistan and India's with the former Soviet Union) and a border war, relations in the twenty-first century between the world's two most populous states have never been more harmonious, as they have started to collaborate in several economic and strategic areas. Both countries have doubled their economic trade in the past few years and China is expected to become India's largest trading partner by 2008. The two countries are planning to host joint naval exercises. In 2003, China and India held negotiations for the first time since the Sino-Indian War of 1962 on a major border dispute: however, the dispute over Aksai Chin and Arunachal Pradesh is not settled, and plagues Sino-India relations. While New Delhi has raised objections to Chinese military-aid to arch-rival Pakistan and neighboring Bangladesh, Beijing similarly objects to India's growing military collaboration with Japan, Australia and the United States.

China has border and maritime disputes, including with Vietnam in the Gulf of Tonkin and with Japan. Beijing has resolved many of these disputes. Notably on July 21, 2008 it finally resolved the last remaining border dispute it had with Russia with Russia ceding a small amount of territory to China. There is now no border dispute between Russia and China along their 4300 km border. China also reached a 2000 agreement with Vietnam to resolve some differences over their maritime border, though disagreements remain over some islands in the South China Sea.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_the_People's_Republic_of_China

Some very important points WRT China's foreign policy:
China maintains independence, will neither enter into alliance with any big power or group of countries, nor establish any military bloc, join in the arms race or seek military expansion

4. Strengthening Solidarity of the Developing Countries, and Together Opposing Imperialism and Colonialism
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/china/19990914A128.html

China is hugely opposed to expansionism, imperialism and colonialism, for very simple reasons, they suffered under all 3 for many years from Western countries and Japan, and they are isolationist in thinking and culture not expansionist
China poses no threat to the peace in the region.
 
Nanfeshein is right. IMO you're misdirected if you think that there is any real danger of China attempting to invade Russia. It goes against their best interests and there is no history of any such attempt. They are far more concerned with regaining what they consider their rightful territories - i.e. Tibet, Taiwan, etc.

But of course I take your point about the US's advantages. Under normal circumstances I would of course expect them to retain their dominance. It's just that these are not normal circumstances. How do you expect them to maintain their position throughout another depression?
 
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Sub Prime Crisis

Would I be wrong in saying that the current Economic turmoil stems from America's Sub Prime Crisis where Banks loaned money for homes to people who essentially could not afford the homes in the first place under the vice that the price of property keeps going up?

I could add to the comment above. The same Banks loaned this money several years ago when the US Interest Rates were 1 or 2 percent (not caring to check now).

So on the one hand you have people who might have been able service the loans if they were at 2%, but the Federal Reserve was hiking the Interest Rate steadily over a period of 3 years (2001/2 to 2006/7).

So a person who was paying lets say $10 dollars a year on every $1000 loaned in the year 2001 or thereabouts ended up having to pay $50 a year to service the same debt. See the problem?

So who caused the problem.
1. The banks that loaned the money to the dodgy clients?
2. The Fed that hiked the interest rates proportionally too high? 1% > 5%

Think what a hike like this would do in our own market if had that sort of increase?

I will add more later ... got to go to the Doctor. :)
 
China is hugely opposed to expansionism, imperialism and colonialism, for very simple reasons, they suffered under all 3 for many years from Western countries and Japan, and they are isolationist in thinking and culture not expansionist
China poses no threat to the peace in the region.

What are they doing in Tibet again?

Also odd they treat their own citizens like "colonialist" would :o. No vote, no rights and no respect. By your logic then one can say since they have no respect for their own citizens they wouldn't have any respect for citizens of other countries.

China enacted a law Monday authorizing the use of force against Taiwan if it moves toward formal independence, codifying its long-standing threat to attack the island. The measure could provoke a popular backlash in Taiwan and quickly unravel recent progress in cross-strait relations.

The National People's Congress, the ruling Communist Party's rubber-stamp parliament, approved the anti-secession law by a vote of 2,896 to 0, with two abstentions, defying U.S. appeals for restraint and strong protests by Taiwanese President Chen Shui-bian as well as some of his political rivals.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A32353-2005Mar13.html
 
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