Driving a manual makes you a better driver?

[HavocXphere]

I don't roll back in a hill whether in my manual or automatic.

It's also perfectly possible to roll back with an automatic, in fact it's more common for an automatic to roll back ever so slightly and not to pull away perfectly.

How do you figure that?

I drive a manual & do the handbrake thing, so rolling is not an issue. Driving my dad's automatic BMW I've never managed to roll it though, even when fairly slow on the switching from brake to accel pedal on an incline. I recall being particularly impressed by this the first time I drove his car.

Speaking of which...does one do the handbrake thing with an auto on a hectic incline? Never drove an auto on a hectic incline, so not quite sure what the correct procedure is there? If yes then how do you time it without feeling the clutch?

 

[HavocXphere]

If i was chilled and drove slow i would go auto for sure.

Its deceptive though. The auto boxes do "learn".

e.g. My dad's old BMW always felt sluggish on the pedal response. *Super* smooth but sluggish response (The type where you can drive 120kmh on the dot for a billion kilometers on end). When he got his new BMW I was surprised how responsive the pedal response was. 3 months later...Super smooth and sluggish response again.

Come to think of it, this might be a useful thing to consider when buying a car. I sure as hell wouldn't mind buying a car that was driven like my dad's. Send it to the shop to reset the ECU/stats/whatever and you've got a responsive car that was driven in a chilled fashion by the previous owner.

 

[Naami]

How do you figure that?

I drive a manual & do the handbrake thing, so rolling is not an issue. Driving my dad's automatic BMW I've never managed to roll it though, even when fairly slow on the switching from brake to accel pedal on an incline. I recall being particularly impressed by this the first time I drove his car.

Speaking of which...does one do the handbrake thing with an auto on a hectic incline? Never drove an auto on a hectic incline, so not quite sure what the correct procedure is there? If yes then how do you time it without feeling the clutch?

Most modern autos have hill start function. It holds the car on an incline while you accelerate and take off smoothly without Rollin back

 

[ichigo]

Was wondering something...

If you have two almost identical cars, one with manual gearbox and one auto which one will go from 100 km/h to 0 km/h the fastest when changing down gears and slight breaking? .

If its manual its the reason why I use one.

 

[SauRoNZA]

How do you figure that?

I drive a manual & do the handbrake thing, so rolling is not an issue. Driving my dad's automatic BMW I've never managed to roll it though, even when fairly slow on the switching from brake to accel pedal on an incline. I recall being particularly impressed by this the first time I drove his car.

Speaking of which...does one do the handbrake thing with an auto on a hectic incline? Never drove an auto on a hectic incline, so not quite sure what the correct procedure is there? If yes then how do you time it without feeling the clutch?

Heavy incline is precisely where it will roll back.

You simply click in and hold the handbrake and release it as the car powers forward.

No different to a clutch and manual box really.

There's a reason modern cars get hill hold assist, because even automatics do roll back and often move back ever so slightly before "taking".

 

[SauRoNZA]

Its deceptive though. The auto boxes do "learn".

e.g. My dad's old BMW always felt sluggish on the pedal response. *Super* smooth but sluggish response (The type where you can drive 120kmh on the dot for a billion kilometers on end). When he got his new BMW I was surprised how responsive the pedal response was. 3 months later...Super smooth and sluggish response again.

Come to think of it, this might be a useful thing to consider when buying a car. I sure as hell wouldn't mind buying a car that was driven like my dad's. Send it to the shop to reset the ECU/stats/whatever and you've got a responsive car that was driven in a chilled fashion by the previous owner.

You don't necessarily want a car that was driven "lazy" and then suddenly driven hard. Odds are it will explode faster than a car that was always driven hard.

Harder driven cards, especially through running in often put out a few horsepower more than "lazy" cars and are more responsive for it.

Also the gearbox/ECU should relearn within a couple of minutes of changing driving style drastically.

Was wondering something...

If you have two almost identical cars, one with manual gearbox and one auto which one will go from 100 km/h to 0 km/h the fastest when changing down gears and slight breaking? .

If its manual its the reason why I use one.

No two cars or gearboxes are the same. Different engines have different compression which ultimately affect engine braking differently.

Engine braking does not help your car stop any faster, that's what the brakes are for. It simply helps making for a smoother ride by matching your engine speed to your road speed, something most automatics do better than people anyway.

Now it you took the brakes out of the equation all together that would be the only fair comparison really, but ultimately pointless.

Besides if you want that "control" with regards to engine braking you can have it in most tiptronic automatics or electronic clutch gearboxes like the DSG.

Even in old school automatics you could just shift it down to a lower gear if you were really that way inclined, but older automatics normally were heavy on engine braking the moment you lifted your foot off the throttle because they are pretty much always engaged.

 

[ichigo]

You don't necessarily want a car that was driven "lazy" and then suddenly driven hard. Odds are it will explode faster than a car that was always driven hard.

Harder driven cards, especially through running in often put out a few horsepower more than "lazy" cars and are more responsive for it.

Also the gearbox/ECU should relearn within a couple of minutes of changing driving style drastically.



No two cars or gearboxes are the same. Different engines have different compression which ultimately affect engine braking differently.

Engine braking does not help your car stop any faster, that's what the brakes are for. It simply helps making for a smoother ride by matching your engine speed to your road speed, something most automatics do better than people anyway.

Now it you took the brakes out of the equation all together that would be the only fair comparison really, but ultimately pointless.

Besides if you want that "control" with regards to engine braking you can have it in most tiptronic automatics or electronic clutch gearboxes like the DSG.

Even in old school automatics you could just shift it down to a lower gear if you were really that way inclined, but older automatics normally were heavy on engine braking the moment you lifted your foot off the throttle because they are pretty much always engaged.

It does help in wet weather when you don't want your breaks to lock and still slow down fast enough .

I love changing down gears before robots and other things.

 

[SauRoNZA]

How?

You are transferring the same amount of weight to the front wheels making them equally likely to lock, you are probably losing valuable braking distance in the process.

Rather learn to brake better and harder without locking your wheels.

Don't get me wrong, I also use engine braking in a manual (and automatic) car when driving enthusiastically but it's got everything to so with being in the right gear without unsettling the car under acceleration and very little to do with the braking itself.

Locking the brakes, which actually has nothing to do with the brakes and everything to do with the tyres is about exactly that...tyres. Your limits of grip are going to be reached at some point regardless.

Only reason engine braking is feeling better to you is because you are braking incorrectly. You should never slam on the brakes in one hard motion thereby transferring all the weight at once and overburdening the front tyres. You need to brake lightly first, transfer the weight, then do more of the braking.

You are achieving the same thing using engine braking right now, this your false perception of increased braking and a lack of locking the wheels. In fact you are shifting the weight back and forth and unsettling the car.

Proper application with the brakes only to a full stop will be infinitely faster than engine braking.

*****

This excludes ABS of course which beats everything else hands down.

And it's BRAKES, not breaks.


On a road you know well preselecting the correct gear does help you get corner entry speeds right more easily, but you can operate gears in the same manner on an automatic.

I can do all the same engine braking you do, just without a clutch....and have the added benefit of never getting it wrong and spinning up the wheels.

 

[ichigo]

How?

You are transferring the same amount of weight to the front wheels making them equally likely to lock, you are probably losing valuable braking distance in the process.

Rather learn to brake better and harder without locking your wheels.

Don't get me wrong, I also use engine braking in a manual (and automatic) car when driving enthusiastically but it's got everything to so with being in the right gear without unsettling the car under acceleration and very little to do with the braking itself.

Locking the brakes, which actually has nothing to do with the brakes and everything to do with the tyres is about exactly that...tyres. Your limits of grip are going to be reached at some point regardless.

Only reason engine braking is feeling better to you is because you are braking incorrectly. You should never slam on the brakes in one hard motion thereby transferring all the weight at once and overburdening the front tyres. You need to brake lightly first, transfer the weight, then do more of the braking.

You are achieving the same thing using engine braking right now, this your false perception of increased braking and a lack of locking the wheels. In fact you are shifting the weight back and forth and unsettling the car.

Proper application with the brakes only to a full stop will be infinitely faster than engine braking.

*****

This excludes ABS of course which beats everything else hands down.

And it's BRAKES, not breaks.


On a road you know well preselecting the correct gear does help you get corner entry speeds right more easily, but you can operate gears in the same manner on an automatic.

I can do all the same engine braking you do, just without a clutch....and have the added benefit of never getting it wrong and spinning up the wheels.

I use the braking method you said with the changing down gears not just changing down alone.

Mine doesn't have ABS sadly being a 14 year old car and find the brakes take a while to slow down which doesn't help when needing to stop quickly and smoothly.

I changed to using both together after the braking method only failed to stop my car going down a hill in heavy hail/rain and slid.

My Dad and mom actually taught it to me.

 

[d7e7r7]

My first car was manual (Citi Golf), my second and current car is auto (Volvo).

I prefer the auto, it's great for traffic and for the long roads, much more pleasant to drive. Don't think it makes me any worse of a driver...

 

[HavocXphere]

This excludes ABS of course which beats everything else hands down.

afaik cadence/theshold braking will generally beat ABS for pure breaking distance.

In fact you are shifting the weight back and forth and unsettling the car.

Most cars have their brake balance set to front side anyways, so barring extreme barking conditions the effect will be similar under moderate braking (assuming FWD).

I do agree that using engine braking under normal driving conditions is somewhat idiotic. I generally only use it when going down a serious hill.

 

[PilgrimToHyperion]

I bough an auto after driving stick for 15 years. It really is more comfortable than stick. Loving it in traffic, on uphills and on the long road. The only thing that annoys me is when it you sometimes get to a certain speed and it can't decide in which gear it should be. It does tend to make one feel ... older somehow. I won't change back to manual, but I am missing doing what I want with the gears. Got tiptronic, but it's not the same.

 

[TJ99]

I also used to be a smug smartass going on about how autos are for lazy/old people and you lose a lot of the driving experience bla bla bla.

Then I bought a Mercedes. Now I'll never go back to the torture of the N1 north through Midrand on a Monday afternoon in a manual car. I now arrive at home and work only slightly annoyed, no more blinding rage.

I find the worst drivers to be based on the type of car they are in, since I can't tell from the outside if they are auto or manual. Taxis are of course the worst, then bikes, followed by Citi Golfs, bakkies and BMW's, especially brand new ones. Most Korean/Chinese shoeboxes are also up there, driving 80 in the fast lane, not using indicators, or suddenly braking hard and swerving because they missed an offramp. I guess it's true what Clarkson says, people who don't care about their cars, don't care about their driving either.

 

[Hamster]

I bough an auto after driving stick for 15 years. It really is more comfortable than stick. Loving it in traffic, on uphills and on the long road. The only thing that annoys me is when it you sometimes get to a certain speed and it can't decide in which gear it should be. It does tend to make one feel ... older somehow. I won't change back to manual, but I am missing doing what I want with the gears. Got tiptronic, but it's not the same.

Tiptronic is the flappy pedals behind the steering wheel right?

I've got step/sport/somethingtronic. Move the gear leaver to the side, engage manual mode ...except if you rev to high or low the gearbox changes for you regardless :/

 

[Hamster]

I also used to be a smug smartass going on about how autos are for lazy/old people and you lose a lot of the driving experience bla bla bla.

Then I bought a Mercedes. Now I'll never go back to the torture of the N1 north through Midrand on a Monday afternoon in a manual car. I now arrive at home and work only slightly annoyed, no more blinding rage.

I find the worst drivers to be based on the type of car they are in, since I can't tell from the outside if they are auto or manual. Taxis are of course the worst, then bikes, followed by Citi Golfs, bakkies and BMW's, especially brand new ones. Most Korean/Chinese shoeboxes are also up there, driving 80 in the fast lane, not using indicators, or suddenly braking hard and swerving because they missed an offramp. I guess it's true what Clarkson says, people who don't care about their cars, don't care about their driving either.

I find the more letters on the car (or the darker the paint job on a German SUV) the bigger the chance of douchbag behaviour/bad driving.

/dons flamesuit

Some guys really think they are on a race track. Maybe those cars are just more noticeable. At least with a taxi you know what to expect.

 

[froot]

Some guys really think they are on a race track. Maybe those cars are just more noticeable. At least with a taxi you know what to expect.

I was out on patrol this morning until 2.30am... the majority of the speeding cars were Polo's and the likes, a few X5's and Cayenne's, and then finally a Metro bakkie, doing 40 over the speed limit.

 

[akescpt]

I was out on patrol this morning until 2.30am... the majority of the speeding cars were Polo's and the likes, a few X5's and Cayenne's, and then finally a Metro bakkie, doing 40 over the speed limit.

Ghost squad?

 

[PilgrimToHyperion]

Tiptronic is the flappy pedals behind the steering wheel right?

I've got step/sport/somethingtronic. Move the gear leaver to the side, engage manual mode ...except if you rev to high or low the gearbox changes for you regardless :/

Got the same as you, move it left and then up/down for changes. You're right, won't let you hit the red zone on the rev counter!

 

[SauRoNZA]

afaik cadence/theshold braking will generally beat ABS for pure breaking distance.

In the hands of a select few individuals yes it can, but on average in the hands of every man ABS performs better across the board.

Most cars have their brake balance set to front side anyways, so barring extreme barking conditions the effect will be similar under moderate braking (assuming FWD).

I'm not referring to braking balance, but rather just plain physics.

Regardless of where you are braking from, under the act of braking all the weight shifts to the front tyres and off the rear putting them under immense strain. This happens on any vehicle regardless of configuration.

It is better balanced on a rear engines car of course since the engine is far removed from the front tyres and this is largely why MR and RR cars handle completely differently to FF or FR cars.

On a rear wheel drive car engine braking might afford you a little more balance, since your braking will be distributed more to the rear wheels in doing so, much like the brake balance you mentioned earlier, but ultimately in an emergency type situation this is really a paper value that amounts to very little.

You want to use engine braking to help in smoothing out your ride and always being in the correct gear for accelerating again, not really for actually stopping the car.

I do agree that using engine braking under normal driving conditions is somewhat idiotic. I generally only use it when going down a serious hill.

Like I said you should use it, but for different reasons none of which should really to stop the car faster.

It offers more overall control, but certainly not better braking in and of itself. But this can be achieved with any gearbox and modern autos do it better than wannabe racers anyway.

 

[SauRoNZA]

Tiptronic is the flappy pedals behind the steering wheel right?

I've got step/sport/somethingtronic. Move the gear leaver to the side, engage manual mode ...except if you rev to high or low the gearbox changes for you regardless :/

Yes and no.

Paddles don't necessarily means that it's a Tiptronic box, rather the paddles are just an extra set of controls for a box that allows for manual control of shifting.

In older automatics you could select 1,2,3,D which literally just restricted the gearbox to the highest gear as you selected, it was never fully selectable and downshifting wasn't and option outside of using kickdown.

Then Tiptronic (and its various other names) which makes it a semi-automatic gearbox meaning that you can select each and every gear as you choose. So you could switch it into "manual" and go up and down the gears as you like as long as the car agrees you won't damage the engine. Paddles were later added to facilitate this so that your hands stay on the wheel instead of needing to use the shifter.

Even later came "temporary manual" modes where you can leave the car in drive but then hit the pedal and it will shift up or down and do what you want for a short while before going into automatic again.

But paddles are also found on cars that are always manual (without a clutch) such as some super cars or the likes of a DSG or other dual clutch transmission which are actually nothing like Tiptronics in that they are pretty much manual gearboxes that make use of an electronic clutch and linked to the ECU / Throttle in the car for exceptionally fast and smooth gear changes.