Dual Spec - Maybe not.

[Joker]

Corgon: No, but it's on the PTR since a few days ago.

isankey: I get what you're saying, but do you honestly think this won't change the game? Did you read the blog posts? Yes it technically changes nothing apart from free'ing up time, but most raiding guilds would never expect you to fly back to town and re-spec before every boss encounter..

Now that you can, it changes everything. Paladins/Druids/Shaman WILL be expected to have an offspec. Don't like being a healer? Well if the raid needs one tough luck, you've got no excuses now.

In other news: Hearthstones down to 30 minute cooldown in 3.1 ;p

 

[PsyWulf]

Now that you can, it changes everything. Paladins/Druids/Shaman WILL be expected to have an offspec. Don't like being a healer? Well if the raid needs one tough luck, you've got no excuses now.

Yeah that's most guilds,and most guilds still won't expect you to switch inraid if they're worth they're "Casual" salt

For the rest of us who are the achievers and "hardcore" I've swapped out toons in Sunwell,i've respecced Prot for 8man patchwerk to soak the extra dmg when our planned 2nd healer got disconnected and we had to ring in a new guy with half the gear. Even last night we did 25man naxx with 2 holy priests a druid and a shammy healing,guess what we had to do for Instructor? Retridin respecced and I swapped in my holydin so the priesties could tank


Guilds who "expect" you to have a 2nd spec you must avoid,it's pretty much like forcing you to be holy or tonkadin if you roll a Pally. Players who excel will enjoy multispecs,and for the benefit of the guild and raid will know how to offheal/offtank already,now we can just save 200gold to respec to do it efficiently

 

[Jase]

Corgon: No, but it's on the PTR since a few days ago.

isankey: I get what you're saying, but do you honestly think this won't change the game? Did you read the blog posts? Yes it technically changes nothing apart from free'ing up time, but most raiding guilds would never expect you to fly back to town and re-spec before every boss encounter..

Now that you can, it changes everything. Paladins/Druids/Shaman WILL be expected to have an offspec. Don't like being a healer? Well if the raid needs one tough luck, you've got no excuses now.

In other news: Hearthstones down to 30 minute cooldown in 3.1 ;p

If that was the guild I was in, they'd get the middle finger from me.

On the other hand (Darren), it just means I can roll on more gear and run with the 'You might need me to offspec in the next fight excuse ....'

As to more bag space. Most people I know in our guild have another set of gear in their bags for farming / pvp etc.

 

[PsyWulf]

If that was the guild I was in, they'd get the middle finger from me.

On the other hand (Darren), it just means I can roll on more gear and run with the 'You might need me to offspec in the next fight excuse ....'

As to more bag space. Most people I know in our guild have another set of gear in their bags for farming / pvp etc.

Carry 3 full sets with consumeables for each and all my bagspace is around 70% filled. Only reason I carry the pvp set inraid tho is to pop on my PVP helm with the runspeed meta,makes a corpserun faster :>

 

[werries2]

Corgon: No, but it's on the PTR since a few days ago.

isankey: I get what you're saying, but do you honestly think this won't change the game? Did you read the blog posts? Yes it technically changes nothing apart from free'ing up time, but most raiding guilds would never expect you to fly back to town and re-spec before every boss encounter..

Now that you can, it changes everything. Paladins/Druids/Shaman WILL be expected to have an offspec. Don't like being a healer? Well if the raid needs one tough luck, you've got no excuses now.

In other news: Hearthstones down to 30 minute cooldown in 3.1 ;p

Hardcore raid groups, does send people in for respecs regularly during raids, or swap people in and out depending on the situation. Lucky there are mage portals and warlock summoning that reduced this time.

Organising with dual spec chars can become a bit of a headache though.

 

[isankey]

Heh I'm sure the druids out there are wondering what all the fuss about multiple gear sets is about, in vanilla and BC you'd end up running around with three very distinct sets of gear in your bags, especially as feral - dps, tanking, and an offspec healing set. Imagine trying to cram that lot into >16 slot bags

So far as being *forced* to respecc by your guild goes, they had better either pony up the cash for it in game, or pony up the irl shekels for your game subs. When they do that, *then* they can make that demand with a reasonable expectation of having you do it. Otherwise, tell them to kiss your ass, & go find a guild that is worth being in.

And Joker, I really don't see this having a negative impact at all, particularly at the more casual end of the spectrum. It will open up content and encounters to guilds who would otherwise lack the manpower required.
And the respeccing for instances / raids happens at that end of the spectrum too. I'm in an extremely casual guild - hell, we can't even get a regular 5 man group going most of the time, never mind a raid - but it's happened more than once where one of members has been asked / has offered to respecc to heal / tank / whatever just so that we can do a 5 man instance because we've not been able to find someone to fill the required slot.

Seriously, this change to game mechanics is on the order of being able to summon off a meeting stone, the instant mail between toons on your account, removing mounts & pets from your bags, that kind of thing.
Essentially it's a small cosmetic / convenience change that makes a positive impact out of proportion with the actual change itself. It will not be long at all before we're wondering how the hell we managed without it till now.

 

[Skurm]

I agree that part of what made WoW, WoW, was that feeling of 'i'm a tank, or I'm a healer'. So we're losing that, yes. It's going to take some adjustment to lose the feeling of 'I am a tank and ONLY a tank' and move to the mindset of 'i'm a tank OR dps'. But it can work. From the perspective of someone who played WAR for a while and still does occasionally - respeccing was easy and quick and relatively cheap in WAR and you could switch tactics on the fly to jump between role. It works in WAR, it can work in WoW. It'll take some adjustment, but that's not the end of the world. Fact is you'll still need to assemble multiple sets to fulfill different roles, and that can be hard in a world full of DKP and loot emo. As a longtime hybrid (druid and shaman) player I can certainly attest to the effort it takes to accumulate multiple gear sets. Personally I forsee that only the most dedicated players will have the time, resources AND ability to fully abuse the ability to dual spec. Most everyone else will still probably stick to one spec and gearset.

 

[Syzygy78]

Well, if you have run 25 man Naxx quite a few times, it is getting to the point where T7 and T7.5 tokens arent even being greeded on. I reckon you can [and will] build up reasonable gear quite quickly.

 

[Syzygy78]

Instead of being all sarcastic & snippy cause I'm hungover and in a bad mood, I'll just say read the post again, slowly this time, and then come back and tell me where the QQ in it is.

Ok, I agree. Please don't buy the dual spec option. Each time you need to respecc just "hearth, visit the trainer, pay the fee, spend the talent points, and then accept the summon back to the instance / raid / whatever". It seems like you forget to change your glyphs. I don't know why you want people to read your post any slower. Perhaps its your option that is more time consuming.

Just trying to save you time and gold

 

[Joker]

I think we're going off tangent here;

The core function of Dual-Specs is a great idea. Saves time from flying to cities to change specs during raids, and being able to switch specs for pvp/pve content easily.

Personally I feel we do loose the strategy element involved in raid configurations - but as the 'hardcore' guys have pointed out you've been switching during raids for years. So you've lost some of this already I guess, no problem that's how you roll.

Otherwise I'm happy for those changes, we're all been wanting a simpler cheaper solution for years.

But there are other connotations to Dual specs which aren't immediately clear. You're going to basically be forced to choose another role even if it's not your playstyle taste. From now on you won't be The Tank. The Healer etc.. You won't have a primary spec you're known to be. My Druid will be a tank/healer healer/tank - no difference.

And yes, you can say 'my guild will never force me to choose a spec I don't want to play', and most decent guilds won't - but for example - you're on a hard raid boss, and an extra healer would have been perfect. Wipe. You're a Paladin and you've just been dps'ing.

Won't you feel bad? There's nothing stopping you from having a healer off-spec... No more 50g, no more 15min raid downtime waiting for you to hearth over, re-spec, fly back, re-buff. So you're basically just being difficult.

Don't want to be that guy? Ok, duel spec for healer - Enjoy gearing up basically a second character for raid-level content, which takes a fun load of time time and effort, especially when Ulduar becomes the gear level. So you do that, great.. you heal some encounters.. you hate being a whack-a-mole healbot but it's needed now and then.. so fine. Then one day NewMage wants to join the raid groups to DPS.. Raidleader whispers - 'can you just heal this raid then?'.

You're now a guild healer who's off-spec is DPS.

This is how it's going to start, slowly creeping into the game. I can guarantee in a few months time everyone will have two active specs. It'll be common, and if not you'll be considered unskilled for only being able to handle one.

If you're in your element multi-speccing then great. You're in the money. But for everyone else who leveled up their character aiming, practising and looking forward to specialising in their chosen role.. well.. that's now a past-time.

 

[PsyWulf]

Then one day NewMage wants to join the raid groups to DPS.. Raidleader whispers - 'can you just heal this raid then?'.

You don't rotate DPS spots if you're too many? Either that or your recruitment needs work,we clearly indicate to any new guys you will be welcome to gearing runs but the premium spots you will have to contend with other brilliant people.

We aren't in the business of making people respec to raid - they do that on their own and as a Hybrid class it's handy,if you really don't want to compete for dps spots,respec. Each of our officers have at least a tank or healing toon along with a dps toon. We don't mind sitting out if there is more dps than needed or swapping out when needed. At any one time we have at least 2 spare tanks and healers that are not on the rotation that day just lvling alts or PVPing aswell.

The main problem it seems you're describing is more a social issue than a game mechanic being used more freely due to lowering the cost and thus making it more accessible to everybody.

As an example and this was in BC days
We had a scheduled BT run but our MT couldn't make it due to IRL issues. The RL asked me to respec,costs for the respec and consumeables were covered,I got ported and summoned back,didnt take 5 minutes even. Tanked the run,rolled on Tank gear as I was tanking,Rolled on DPS gear as that was the spec I joined as.


In real life aswell if you do people a favor,they will either appreciate it or abuse it,that's a personality issue. Telling you to respec or not raid is just bad manners. Just as ordering an offspec to be kept is. Some of our guys don't grab offspec gear,and frankly i'm glad,i've seen some of them tank/heal for entertainment and it's disasterous.

Let the dual-speccers who can do it and enjoy it - use it

 

[isankey]

Ok, I agree. Please don't buy the dual spec option. Each time you need to respecc just "hearth, visit the trainer, pay the fee, spend the talent points, and then accept the summon back to the instance / raid / whatever". It seems like you forget to change your glyphs. I don't know why you want people to read your post any slower. Perhaps its your option that is more time consuming.

Just trying to save you time and gold

And this people, is why a high school education is supposed to be compulsory, and that a required subject is English, the syllabus for which includes COMPREHENSION

Again, read my post and my other posts on this subject in this thread, very slowly this time, take the time to digest and think a little about what was said, and then point out exactly where I "QQ" about dual speccing, where I once intimate in any way, shape, form, fashion, or manner that I don't think it's a great thing.

Or I'll give you the TL: DNR version here if you want, save you the effort of trying to figure out plain English : dual specc = good, QQ by people who think it's bad = teh sukk.

Clear enough for you now?

 

[Abe]

It would not be necessary if all of the specs were PVP viable. Bascially its a must have if you want to PVP and raid.

 

[Skurm]

I actually kinda have some sympathy for rogues. They have exactly one viable raid spec and role. Mages, to a degree, too, although maybe switching ebtween frost and fire to deal with certain boss fights might be useful.

The guys really winning out here are the hybrids, while the pure dps like hunters, rogues etc are kinda stuck in the same place they've always been. Perhaps, for that reason alone, this change shouldn't go live - it's a bit 'classist'.

 

[PsyWulf]

Our recordholder for respecs is our nr2 rogue with 12000g spent on respecs since the statistics started tracking it

 

[Joker]

You don't rotate DPS spots if you're too many? Either that or your recruitment needs work,we clearly indicate to any new guys you will be welcome to gearing runs but the premium spots you will have to contend with other brilliant people.

In your guilds situation, correct, but that's not the issue I'm trying to get across. The problem isn't having (now) very easy access to an off-spec to make raids work, the problem is you can change during the raid without any repercussions.

This is a new for everyone.

Yes, the harcore guys have been changing specs during raids for ages now, but it was still something which needed concentration and time. It wasn't done unless you had to respec to down that boss.

If changing specs just made the fight slightly easier, but was still very easily possible without, then it wouldn't be done. Only if wipes are encountered was it considered. I don't believe hardcore raiders respec before every encounter just for the hell of it, even if it's not needed to down a boss with your current setup.

-Now- that's not an issue, it's been made too simple, too easy to do. Even if changing specs before an encounter made it 1-5% less wipe likely then it'll be done, no reason why not.

Everyone wants to be the best player they can be, especially in raids. If you can bring that 5% by having the off-spec available, and everyone knows it, then it'll be greatly appreciated to a point of expected. This is especially true now as it no longer affects the raid time/performance. It's now up to you, the player, to put in the time and get your offspec prepared.

Yes, you can continue playing with your one-spec. Contradicting myself for you - if you can still down a boss without that extra offspecs 5% then does it matter? Well, the fact is it does, yes. That's like saying the guy in blues has put in the effort to be the best player he can be. I don't think so.

It's now your prerogative to be that better player. And when is that not expected?

So back to my original point; this is not just a game mechanic you have to adapt your play-style to. It's a complete play-style alternative that's going to become mandatory, even if you don't like it.

 

[PsyWulf]

In your guilds situation, correct, but that's not the issue I'm trying to get across. The problem isn't having (now) very easy access to an off-spec to make raids work, the problem is you can change during the raid without any repercussions.

This is a new for everyone.

Yes, the harcore guys have been changing specs during raids for ages now, but it was still something which needed concentration and time. It wasn't done unless you had to respec to down that boss.

If changing specs just made the fight slightly easier, but was still very easily possible without, then it wouldn't be done. Only if wipes are encountered was it considered. I don't believe hardcore raiders respec before every encounter just for the hell of it, even if it's not needed to down a boss with your current setup.

-Now- that's not an issue, it's been made too simple, too easy to do. Even if changing specs before an encounter made it 1-5% less wipe likely then it'll be done, no reason why not.

Everyone wants to be the best player they can be, especially in raids. If you can bring that 5% by having the off-spec available, and everyone knows it, then it'll be greatly appreciated to a point of expected. This is especially true now as it no longer affects the raid time/performance. It's now up to you, the player, to put in the time and get your offspec prepared.

Yes, you can continue playing with your one-spec. Contradicting myself for you - if you can still down a boss without that extra offspecs 5% then does it matter? Well, the fact is it does, yes. That's like saying the guy in blues has put in the effort to be the best player he can be. I don't think so.

It's now your prerogative to be that better player. And when is that not expected?

So back to my original point; this is not just a game mechanic you have to adapt your play-style to. It's a complete play-style alternative that's going to become mandatory, even if you don't like it.

Social issue.

If I can't heal I can't heal. If you invite me to a raid to help heal in a fight that means you have underplanned or undergeared actual healers. Encounters aren't designed for offtanks/offhealers to be required. They are designed for a specific DPS/Defense and healing requirement. If your raid misses that you didn't plan well or can't play well enough. Some guilds may force you to respec it to help,but then that is your guild's issue. Good luck

I'll enjoy my tanking/dps/healing role that i'll now easily be able to fulfill on my chars and my guild will keep oneshotting raids with our core and rotated class members still doing the exact same thing they've done before - do the task they joined the guild to do,collect off-sets if not needed and respec when they want to

 

[werries2]

Social issue.

If I can't heal I can't heal. If you invite me to a raid to help heal in a fight that means you have underplanned or undergeared actual healers. Encounters aren't designed for offtanks/offhealers to be required. They are designed for a specific DPS/Defense and healing requirement. If your raid misses that you didn't plan well or can't play well enough. Some guilds may force you to respec it to help,but then that is your guild's issue. Good luck

I'll enjoy my tanking/dps/healing role that i'll now easily be able to fulfill on my chars and my guild will keep oneshotting raids with our core and rotated class members still doing the exact same thing they've done before - do the task they joined the guild to do,collect off-sets if not needed and respec when they want to

Thats just it, you were invited as a healer, if you can't heal don't accept the invitation... And unfortunatly raids are designed for offtanks and offhealers to be pressent. The first boss requires 1 tank 6 healers, second boss 3 tanks 8 healers, then the third boss 2 tanks 7 healers. What do you do with the extra 2 tanks and 2 healers when they are not needed and that fight is a dps race?

 

[PsyWulf]

Thats just it, you were invited as a healer, if you can't heal don't accept the invitation... And unfortunatly raids are designed for offtanks and offhealers to be pressent. The first boss requires 1 tank 6 healers, second boss 3 tanks 8 healers, then the third boss 2 tanks 7 healers. What do you do with the extra 2 tanks and 2 healers when they are not needed and that fight is a dps race?

Offhealers and Offtanks in the respec-sense,not mainspecs.

DPS race encounters are pretty well balanced at the moment,we haven't had a sunwell situation where you'd need to bench anybody for 1 boss and not the next,some fights they may do less but they aren't spacewasters so the point is moot

 

[werries2]

Offhealers and Offtanks in the respec-sense,not mainspecs.

DPS race encounters are pretty well balanced at the moment,we haven't had a sunwell situation where you'd need to bench anybody for 1 boss and not the next,some fights they may do less but they aren't spacewasters so the point is moot

We also did not have sunwell problems with this, but Malygos to Sartharion 3D raids does result in lots of raid changes. We still use 4 tanks for Sarth 3D and only 1 MT and 1 OT for Malygos. So benching 2 tanks on Malygos, or having to rotate them so that they don't loose out on loot.
(The problem gets less pronounced as main DPS becomes better, but that also takes some time)