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E-tolls review panel debate gets heated
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TEXTILE GUY
Honorary Master
Really???
Oh wait, I dont pay e-tolls so I should shuddup ......
I see what you did there
Post of the day for me
As what Baleka would say: We Wish
Jola
Honorary Master
This guy is just a shill for SANRAL.
He won't bite the hand that feeds him.
He won't bite the hand that feeds him.
Albereth
Honorary Master
If you have a degree or diploma from GIBS I'd suggest that you may want to try sending your CV elsewhere.
I've heard some crap in my life but the utter BS that he trotted out takes the cake. And this gets followed up by pensioners passing comments about not using the road so why should they pay.
The maths is simple. Society has a debt to pay for the roads. No matter how you try and slice it, everyone is going to pay. Even those who think the never use it. The costs will always get passed on and if you've doubled the costs (conservative estimate) because you're inefficient in collecting, well, double the costs will get passed on.
Those pensions won't go as far and the government is going to have less funds for social programs. In fact, the pensioner could do us all a favour and trundle off because he is a burden and is clogging the suburban streets.
I've heard some crap in my life but the utter BS that he trotted out takes the cake. And this gets followed up by pensioners passing comments about not using the road so why should they pay.
The maths is simple. Society has a debt to pay for the roads. No matter how you try and slice it, everyone is going to pay. Even those who think the never use it. The costs will always get passed on and if you've doubled the costs (conservative estimate) because you're inefficient in collecting, well, double the costs will get passed on.
Those pensions won't go as far and the government is going to have less funds for social programs. In fact, the pensioner could do us all a favour and trundle off because he is a burden and is clogging the suburban streets.
HAL 9000
Honorary Master
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Transport economist Roelof Botha (SCUMRAL's latest shill):
“So if you are in the bottom income quota and using public transport then you should not actually participate in the debate. You should actually shut-up and not participate."
“So if you are in the bottom income quota and using public transport then you should not actually participate in the debate. You should actually shut-up and not participate."
supersunbird
Honorary Master
Can anyone find a e-mail address for this.... erm... guy?
You want to get snotty with him?
supersunbird
Honorary Master
You want to get snotty with him?
You know I can write many paragraphs about how unfair just this implementation is and why it should be scrapped on that alone, never mind the other reasons of plonking this down where spatial development has already occurred.
supersunbird
Honorary Master
Thanks for the e-mail address, better than nothing. I just want to guide him to realise that those who support e-tolls in its current fashion have little brain power (because some sections can be used for free, so how is that fair or even user pays in the slightest).
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An "economist" who bastardises a correlation from his backside about income tax evasion with public transport use, by assuming that everyone who uses public transport is a tax evader. This is who Sanral aka the ANC led government's puppets paid to represent their opinions (not facts) on their behalf, about macro and socio-economic impacts as a result of an ill-conceived transport system? Really?
Well done on this epic backfire, Wallys.
For the record, as a business, we oppose E-Tolling. Not a great surprise there if you know the shareholders of Crystal Web.
Well done on this epic backfire, Wallys.
For the record, as a business, we oppose E-Tolling. Not a great surprise there if you know the shareholders of Crystal Web.
qwertyqwer
Active Member
Honestly though did you expect it to be anything other than a bunch of monkeys in court ?
HAL 9000
Honorary Master
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IS e-TOLLING REALLY PRO-POOR? - OUTA CHALLENGES Dr ROELOF BOTHA TO A PUBLIC DEBATE
In response to Sanral consultant and academic economist Dr Roelof Botha’s passionate assertion that e-tolling is pro-poor, the Opposition to Urban Tolling Alliance has challenged him to a public debate to settle the matter.
Although he has retracted his statement that “those who don’t pay taxes should shut up about e-tolling,” OUTA believes that, before any reconciliation can take place between Dr Botha and those he offended by his contemptuous choice of words, he needs to commit himself to a process of engagement with his critics in the hope that we can turn down the heat, and redirect the energy to generating light instead.
“Dr Botha has re-charged the debate with emotion, projecting his frustration in a grossly misdirected manner and quite frankly, has done Sanral’s case for e-tolling more harm than their critics ever could,” says John Clarke, OUTA’s Spokesperson.
“OUTA has invested an extraordinary amount of time and intellectual effort to produce a document (Beyond the Impasse) that interrogated Dr Botha’s arguments, and those of other pro e-tolling economists (Andrew Marsay and Barry Standish). It was written precisely to take the emotional charge OUT of the debate by presenting a rigorous, academically respectable case against the e-tolling decision.”
For too long we have heard the economic theory of an 8,4:1 benefit to cost ratio as espoused by Sanral’s economists, yet we wonder why this has not been tested in a live environment since the freeway upgrade was completed three years ago.
The logic provided in this economic benefit argument by Botha, implies that time spent in the traffic is a direct loss of salary or earning potential to the road user.
Conversely, his argument suggests that if one arrives earlier to work in the morning or home in the evening, the road user actually earns more money / salary in the bank.
“It is an argument as irrational as trying to place a rand value on love, dignity or altruism,” says OUTA’s Chairman, Wayne Duvenage.
Adding further concern to the argument, Dr Botha expects those salaried individuals to not only put a rand value on their time outside of working hours, but to also pay a compulsory tax on it, even if the benefits don’t materialize.
In regard to the brash and questionable statements presented on Wednesday to the e-toll panel, John Clarke has written to Dr Botha to ask him if he has in fact read OUTA’s ‘Beyond the Impasse’ report (freely available on the OUTA web site), and to invite him to a public debate on his ‘pro-poor’ and economic benefit convictions.
“South Africa stands in desperate need of a public discourse on controversial issues that is both intellectually rigorous and respectful of the human dignity and constitutional rights of all, especially those with whom we disagree” Clarke says.
“Roelof has shown some guts to champion a very unpopular cause. If he is convinced that e-tolling is ‘pro-poor’ and economically viable, let’s debate that proposition. He and his team need not fear any filibustering, ad-hominem attacks or insults – just sound intellectual argument between professionals."
"Let’s set an example of how to handle differences, recognizing that we are both sincerely committed to a pro-poor policy with respect to the issues.”
http://www.outa.co.za/site/is-e-tol...hallenges-dr-roelof-botha-to-a-public-debate/
E-Toll Zombies - 'The Walking (or Driving, in this case) Dead!'
E-Tolls - 'You Get Home Faster'
Illusion:
Reality: (the evening after the Gauteng e-toll gantries went live in December last year)
In response to Sanral consultant and academic economist Dr Roelof Botha’s passionate assertion that e-tolling is pro-poor, the Opposition to Urban Tolling Alliance has challenged him to a public debate to settle the matter.
Although he has retracted his statement that “those who don’t pay taxes should shut up about e-tolling,” OUTA believes that, before any reconciliation can take place between Dr Botha and those he offended by his contemptuous choice of words, he needs to commit himself to a process of engagement with his critics in the hope that we can turn down the heat, and redirect the energy to generating light instead.
“Dr Botha has re-charged the debate with emotion, projecting his frustration in a grossly misdirected manner and quite frankly, has done Sanral’s case for e-tolling more harm than their critics ever could,” says John Clarke, OUTA’s Spokesperson.
“OUTA has invested an extraordinary amount of time and intellectual effort to produce a document (Beyond the Impasse) that interrogated Dr Botha’s arguments, and those of other pro e-tolling economists (Andrew Marsay and Barry Standish). It was written precisely to take the emotional charge OUT of the debate by presenting a rigorous, academically respectable case against the e-tolling decision.”
For too long we have heard the economic theory of an 8,4:1 benefit to cost ratio as espoused by Sanral’s economists, yet we wonder why this has not been tested in a live environment since the freeway upgrade was completed three years ago.
The logic provided in this economic benefit argument by Botha, implies that time spent in the traffic is a direct loss of salary or earning potential to the road user.
Conversely, his argument suggests that if one arrives earlier to work in the morning or home in the evening, the road user actually earns more money / salary in the bank.
“It is an argument as irrational as trying to place a rand value on love, dignity or altruism,” says OUTA’s Chairman, Wayne Duvenage.
Adding further concern to the argument, Dr Botha expects those salaried individuals to not only put a rand value on their time outside of working hours, but to also pay a compulsory tax on it, even if the benefits don’t materialize.
In regard to the brash and questionable statements presented on Wednesday to the e-toll panel, John Clarke has written to Dr Botha to ask him if he has in fact read OUTA’s ‘Beyond the Impasse’ report (freely available on the OUTA web site), and to invite him to a public debate on his ‘pro-poor’ and economic benefit convictions.
“South Africa stands in desperate need of a public discourse on controversial issues that is both intellectually rigorous and respectful of the human dignity and constitutional rights of all, especially those with whom we disagree” Clarke says.
“Roelof has shown some guts to champion a very unpopular cause. If he is convinced that e-tolling is ‘pro-poor’ and economically viable, let’s debate that proposition. He and his team need not fear any filibustering, ad-hominem attacks or insults – just sound intellectual argument between professionals."
"Let’s set an example of how to handle differences, recognizing that we are both sincerely committed to a pro-poor policy with respect to the issues.”
http://www.outa.co.za/site/is-e-tol...hallenges-dr-roelof-botha-to-a-public-debate/
E-Toll Zombies - 'The Walking (or Driving, in this case) Dead!'
E-Tolls - 'You Get Home Faster'
Illusion:
Reality: (the evening after the Gauteng e-toll gantries went live in December last year)
HAL 9000
Honorary Master
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