European Elections Thread 2019

konfab said:
You need both IMO.

PR simply makes MPs the rubber stampers of party bosses. With a PR system, you might as well replace all MPs with a single member whose vote is representative of each party. That would save a few hundred million Rand/Euros a year.

The solution proposed in the Van Slabbert commission would be able to get around this by making sure that you have MPs accountable to people, not parties, whilst ensuring that proportionality is maintained.
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I'm inclined to agree with you. Having experienced both systems at work. But changing from a FPTP system to a PR system is nigh impossible, as you are asking politicians to vote for their own demise.

I liked that fact that you know the personality, character and commitment of your candidate in advance in the UK as an example, so you vote for the personality as well as the party. The party lists deny that ability, however in the European elections we just watched the lists are more regional
 
konfab said:
You need both IMO.

PR simply makes MPs the rubber stampers of party bosses. With a PR system, you might as well replace all MPs with a single member whose vote is representative of each party. That would save a few hundred million Rand/Euros a year.

The solution proposed in the Van Slabbert commission would be able to get around this by making sure that you have MPs accountable to people, not parties, whilst ensuring that proportionality is maintained.
Click to expand...

Hamish McPanji said:
I'm inclined to agree with you. Having experienced both systems at work. But changing from a FPTP system to a PR system is nigh impossible, as you are asking politicians to vote for their own demise.

I liked that fact that you know the personality, character and commitment of your candidate in advance in the UK as an example, so you vote for the personality as well as the party. The party lists deny that ability, however in the European elections we just watched the lists are more regional
Click to expand...

It's a tricky thing, as both systems have their benefits and drawbacks. FPTP sucks because it effectively disenfranchises large parts of the population because the voting districts are so entrenched. But it's good because it produces an individual that can be held accountable directly, instead of through party processes. Proportional is good because it gives political representation to a broader part of the electorate, as smaller parties can still get into Parliament. But it's also sucky because it makes MPs rubber stampers and you're at the mercy of the party for accountability.

Although, funnily enough - in the Westminster system, even though they have FPTP (like in the UK), when the governing party whips votes, they basically act like rubber stampers anyway.

I think NZ's mixed-member proportional system works pretty well at balancing the two. Bit more than half the seats are based on electorates with FPTP, with the rest coming from party lists based on proportion of the vote.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_system_of_New_Zealand
 
OrbitalDawn said:
It's a tricky thing, as both systems have their benefits and drawbacks. FPTP sucks because it effectively disenfranchises large parts of the population because the voting districts are so entrenched. But it's good because it produces an individual that can be held accountable directly, instead of through party processes. Proportional is good because it gives political representation to a broader part of the electorate, as smaller parties can still get into Parliament. But it's also sucky because it makes MPs rubber stampers and you're at the mercy of the party for accountability.

Although, funnily enough - in the Westminster system, even though they have FPTP (like in the UK), when the governing party whips votes, they basically act like rubber stampers anyway.

I think NZ's mixed-member proportional system works pretty well at balancing the two. Bit more than half the seats are based on electorates with FPTP, with the rest coming from party lists based on proportion of the vote.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_system_of_New_Zealand
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Adam Bolton was having a terrific time on Sunday, stirring both sides up.

When talking to the former leader of the Greens, he highlighted this when she was upbeat about the next general election. Basically told her to hold her excitement that they ain't gonna win much under FPTP system

He did the same to the brexiteers. Totted up the remainer part vote, and said "no mandate" , with that grin of his.
 
OrbitalDawn said:
.

Although, funnily enough - in the Westminster system, even though they have FPTP (like in the UK), when the governing party whips votes, they basically act like rubber stampers anyway.
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Not with Brexit, though. With people crossing the floor, and voting against their parties regularly.

That won't happen under proportional I reckon
 
You can't claim a do-over just because politicians lie to you.

If that was the case no election would ever be final.
 
daveza said:
You can't claim a do-over just because politicians lie to you.

If that was the case no election would ever be final.
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So you reckon the 2024 election is not going to happen?
 
Y'áll know it's not the same comparison.

If CR proves his election promises were a lie, starting with including corrupt members in his cabinet - then can we demand an immediate election re-run because he was economical with the truth ?
 
daveza said:
Y'áll know it's not the same comparison.

If CR proves his election promises were a lie, starting with including corrupt members in his cabinet - then can we demand an immediate election re-run because he was economical with the truth ?
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Isn’t there a law that specifies the time between parliamentary elections?
 
daveza said:
Y'áll know it's not the same comparison.

If CR proves his election promises were a lie, starting with including corrupt members in his cabinet - then can we demand an immediate election re-run because he was economical with the truth ?
Click to expand...
Should we submit that to the European parliament to consider? We might have to use his full name, because they will think CR is Cristiano Ronaldo
 
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